Replacement Windows

**Hugh Stearns** · 10-02-2005, 11:21 AM

In the course of our remodeling work we end up doing a fair amount of window replacement. We are always very careful about properly sealing the windows, which means removing the veneer.

Of course there are plenty of replacement window guys that will simply remove the old window and slap in a new one without consideration for integrating the window into the homes moisture barrier. Not only are these companies cutting some rather significant corners but also, by oversimplifying the project, they are able to use less trained (i.e. less expensive) labor.

If it is important to properly seal a window in new construction situations, isn’t it just as important to do that in retrofit situations? But of course this means removing the veneer, which a substantially bigger job than what most folks seem to be doing.

**Dick Seibert** · 10-02-2005, 01:30 PM

Hugh:

This is a terrible procedure, I first found out about it while arbitrating cases for the California License Board, the Board was inundated with complaints about leaking, drafty, vinyl windows. I tried to stop it by informing counsel to the Board, but when she and I went to the deputy who was responsible he just said: "That's how they do it".

In 2000 I was distressed to hear that AAMA (the window manufacturers' association) was coming out with a training manual approving the flush-fin installation, I was horrified, but ordered the manual so I would have it for court testimony. When I received it I was delighted to see that their approved installation was impossible to implement without very wide fins on the windows, fins which no manufacturer made. I have never lost a case using the manual to show that they windows weren't installed to minimum industry standards. As you can see from AAMA's detail 15-4 from their training manual the installation requires two beads of sealant sized to the coefficient of linear expansion of the window, with a drainage space between he two beads. This would require a 5" fin on an 8' window, and no manufacturer makes a window with a fin that wide. Table 18-1 requires the bead to be sized, and the standard is to size the bead twice the depth, so an 8' vinyl window would require two 7/8" beads with a 1" gap in between the two beads, the first bead is to seal the vinyl window to the old aluminum window, and the second bead seals the vinyl window to the stucco or wood siding. They also require at least two 2" gaps with no sealant at the bottom of the window to allow the water to drain out, and the wind blows through these gaps defeating any potential energy efficiency and bringing many complaints that the house was colder and draftier than before the window change out.

I've seen cases where there were hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage to houses with these windows installed, and recently helped an Appellate Court judge who bought a house with these leaking windows installed. I'd sure like to see a case get in front of her! The California Supreme Court has ruled that the manufacturers are strictly liable for windows, that means that they can't blame the installation, they are liable for damages no matter what the cause. The Jimenez Case revolved around new windows in tract houses, but the same principle of law applies to replacement windows.¹

Our moderator on this forum, Bill, works for AAMA as a trainer, perhaps he can explain how they get away with this?

¹ http://login.findlaw.com/scripts/cal...th/29/473.html

**Bill Robinson** · 10-02-2005, 01:47 PM

Dick,
I do not agree with some of what you say and do not wish to engage at this time.

One thing though:
I do not work for AAMA but am a certified trainer for their Installation Masters program.

As a licensed contractor in California you do not work for the State but you are licensed (certified) do do work according to the guidelines.

As a licensed driver I do not work for the DMV I am certified (licensed) to drive according to the state.

Get it?

Bill R

**Dick Seibert** · 10-02-2005, 01:49 PM

Bill:

Who pays you to do the training?

**Bill Robinson** · 10-02-2005, 02:04 PM

Gosh Dick, what are you getting at?

This isn't municipal or superior court.

The people/companies I train pay my fees.

Dick, I have heard a lot of wacky perceptions here about the Installation Masters program. It seems to come mostly from a few who are agitated by AAMA and the IM program. You for one.

If you go to the IM website and look at the listed trainers you will see individuals representing companies in the door-window industry.
http://www.installationmastersusa.com/Instruct.htm
Initially you had to be employed by a manufacturer to get a trainer certification but a couple of years ago they relaxed the rules and began allowing anyone with the experience and credentals take the course to get certified as a trainer.

So I did. It is a suppplement to my other training work.

AAMA does not do the training, they sub the work out to a third party.

Get it?

Bill R

**Dick Seibert** · 10-02-2005, 02:32 PM

Bill: Okay, perhaps you should just answer Hugh's questions then since you train people to install windows the way he questions.

**Bill Robinson** · 10-02-2005, 02:45 PM

Dick,
I am not sure of the question so I will wait until I understand if he is asking a question or simply using a question to make a point.

BTW, I am not in favor of using flush fin windows in a membrane drainage (weather-resistive barrier behind exterior cladding)condition.
Bill R

**Dick Seibert** · 10-02-2005, 05:48 PM

Bill:

I see your point, the only question is:

If it is important to properly seal a window in new construction situations, isn’t it just as important to do that in retrofit situations?

I guess we would all answer "Yes". Hugh, do you have a more specific question?

I'm glad you agree that flush-fin installations are bad, how do you handle it when you get to that point in your training? Isn't most of the IM training geared toward the replacement business? Wouldn't it upset the manufacturers, who are making millions of these windows, if you told the trainees the truth?

**Bill Robinson** · 10-02-2005, 06:08 PM

Dick, I do the training as presented in the manual and videos.
I keep my commentary to a minimum unless additional commentary is necessary to complete the course.
With all of its flaws, Installation Masters is the best we have at this time.

It is supported by many and has national recognition.

You seem to want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" when it comes to things you disagree with.
There are conditions where flush fin windows are appropriate but not with stucco and the narrow faced aluminum windows we have here in CA.

Bill R

**Dick Seibert** · 10-02-2005, 06:20 PM

Bill:

Do you bring up backer rod and sizing sealant beads to the coefficient of linear expansion? If there are guys in the replacement business in your courses I think a lot of emphasis should be placed on Figure 15-4 and Table 18-1. I took a predecessor course, sponsored by PG&E, from a guy who supposedly was helping write the IM program (forget his name), and a piece of backer rod was dangled in front of us at some point, but he didn't make it clear how or where it was to be used.

I can't imagine where flush-fin windows would be appropriate, but I agree with installing block frame windows within existing double hung wood frames, I've done that myself.

**Bill Robinson** · 10-02-2005, 06:36 PM

Yes Dick, all of that is covered in the two-day training.
I know where you want to go with this and you will have to go by yourself today.

Bill R

**Hugh Stearns** · 10-03-2005, 11:56 AM

I'm not sure why you would not take my question at face value, as it was intended. I suppose that I was making a point. That being that others are cutting corners that I am not. But the question was not rhetorical.

You guys seem to be in a pissing match over issues that have little to do with this thread. Dick did a great job of providing helpful information in his first post.

I would be very interested in the disagreement you guys are having. But wouldn't it be better placed on a different thread? That was a rhetorical question - Hugh

**McFish** · 10-03-2005, 11:36 PM

I recently attended an AAMa training and asked about sizing sealant/ backer rod to window expansion. I asked, I think, because I read it in one of Dick's posts. The only answer I got was that 7/8" is the maximum recommended joint size.
The training manual says the use of flush finned windows is based on the determination that the existing wrb is intact and that this determination should not be taken lightly. One of the replacement companies in my area installs a lot of flush finned windows on old aluminum frames. The company I sub for did it occasionally but decided to discontinue the practice after all their installers went through the AAMA training.
I sometimes order vinyl windows with a flush fin on the bottom to fit sloped wood sills and plane the fin to fit the sill angle.
Tom

**Dick Seibert** · 10-04-2005, 12:01 AM

McFish:

The company I sub for did it occasionally but decided to discontinue the practice after all their installers went through the AAMA training.

That's encouraging, I have to wonder if the trainer showed them how it would really have to be done, if an installer tried to do it right it would be impossible!

**Bill Robinson** · 10-04-2005, 12:25 AM

Your question seemed rhetorical Hugh. Didn't you already know the answer?

Dick and I have a thing concerning AAMA Installation Masters and every thread is fair game.

I hope your query wasn't too badly damaged by our fun.
You are right obviously; there is no reason to install replacement windows with any less care than new.
In fact, replacement windows often need extra care.

You OK?

Bill R

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