Good Paint, Bad Paint

[Aaron Skoczen]

So what is the difference in the different paints out there. I have been researching this for quite some time now and can't find any difinitive answers. It appears the difference between a medium grade and high grade is durability. Here in AZ, people repaint there home well before 20 year, and if they don't the sun is just going to kill it. So the medium grades seem to work fine.

As far as brands. I spoke with my Dunn-Edwards rep and he compared his product with a Sherwin-Williams product and a Glidden (The Home Depot). DE was $110 a 5 gallon, SW was $106 a 5 gallon, and Glidden was $72 a 5 gallon. What the hell. When I asked my painter, he said he uses Dunn-Edwards becasue all the homeowner think its the best and they have been using the same rep for years now. That's not a good enough reason for me.

Each paint also seems to offer the same application rate and density. The only obvious difference I see between DE, SW, and Glidden, is Home Depot's employee have no clue what they're doing, and they don't deliver.

Can anybody clear this up for me. Something tells me I should be using the DE or SW, but my gut feeling does not justify the cost difference.

[kreg McMahon]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

benjamin moore is also a good paint.

from what I know it is the PREP that makes a good paint better. Prep Prep Prep. you sand clean etc. and de is good and so is sherwin williams. I personally prefer sherwin williams or dunn edward. but for interior behr is a good paint also. I do Not Like Glidden..

my 2 cents worth

kreg

[Sonny Lykos]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

Aaron, I was just in Tucson to visit my sister and her family. I'll dig up a couple of good web sites for you. Basically, the best paints have the maximum percenaage wise of pigment.

Most ext. paint leave about a 2 mil thickness dry film. Better paints leave 3-4 mil, Duration by Sherwin Williams braggs about 4-6 mil.

http://www.painterschatroom.com/

http://www.paintquality.com/

[Mark Parlee]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

Sonny
I built one house that my customer went with my painters recomendation of two coats of duration
Lifetime warrenty as far as chipping, cracking, or peeling, as long as the substrate holds up, no fade warrenty tho.
Due to the expense of the product alone, I recomend two coats of 25 year. This is what I did on my last house. After 12 years it was just beginning to look like it was going to need paint within the next two years. I resided instead. The siding was LP.and was going into failure

Mark

[Chad Fabry]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

Duration is an excellent paint; high solids whick make for a thick film, little or no shrinkage during cure and superior protection. It's expensive @ 40 a gallon, hard to apply because it flashes quickly and you have to work fast to maintain a wet edge, and it's very thick which makes it hard to work into grain. Sherwin Williams makes a brush specifically for Duration and it's worth every penny of the thirty bucks they charge for it. It holds a LOT of paint and the bristles are stiff enough to work the material into the grain.

Muralo makes a very nice paint, Ben Moore does as well.

As far as big box paints go here's my theory: Everything that I know anything about I've found that big box stores carry at best an intermediate quality line (except lately, cordless tools) and I have to assume that paint is no different from the rest of the inventory.

[bkerley]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

I like the F-C Blue label

[StephenS]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

One more big plus for Sherwin Williams interior Duration is the odor dicipicates quickly. I used it last week for the finish of a bathroom project and found thier was barely a noticable paint odor the day following the second coat. I used Behr a week ago on a project and the odor still lingers. Also, The coverage is strong and the cut strokes blended without any shade variation.

California is excellent paint too.

[Kraig Anthony]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

I use Sherwin Williams unless the customer requests another brand. If they have a request, it is often Benjamin Moore, which costs a few dollars more per gallon.

Recently customers have requested Behr at HD. Apparently it tested very well in Consumer Reports.

Does anyone use Pratt & Lambert. They are owned by Shewin Williams or they own Sherwin Williams. The lumberyard sales Pratt & Lambert and they will sell it to me for the same price I am paying for Sherwin Williams A200.

I am considering buying more than 2x and sheet lumber from the lumber yard. Any reason not to buy paint, et al. from the yard?

[Jason Pharez]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

Although I'm no pro painter, I've used Sherwin Williams with excellent results, inside and out. The Valspar American Traditions line at Lowe's is a great paint, too, especially if you're not a really fast brusher. Behr is also great, but you'll have to add a lot of Floetrol to it to keep it from dragging---pro's tell me they don't like it because of this. I've stuck with SW since I first used it because the product quality is consistent and the cust. svc. is always good. Stay away from Glidden.

[Mark Parlee]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

Behr is also great, but you'll have to add a lot of Floetrol to it to keep it from dragging---pro's tell me they don't like it because of this. I've stuck with SW since I first used it because the product quality is consistent and the cust. svc. is always good. Stay away from Glidden.

Jason
You stated that Behr is also great but...

If you do not have this problem with the other, why not stay away from Behr too, I do for that very reason

Mark

[gdavis]

Re: Good Paint, Bad Paint

Good painting has everything to do with doing a good job and little to do with the brand and quality of the paint. Most latex paint made today is good paint. With some of it you will need to put on more coats but its good paint.

The messages posted here seem to approach the idea from different directions. Some address the longevity, some the ease of use and cleanup.

Generally speaking two coats are better than one, so using Duration and applying one coat isn't neccessarily better than using an itermediate grade and applying two coats.

The big question is -- what is the best bargain for the purpose you intend it for. That is a difficult question to answer. I think all of us would agree that the costs of the paint is small compared to the costs of the labor. Historically labor has been about three times the price of the paint. So I think about labor saving although I would still prime and apply two coats including backpriming of wood siding and trim. You can use the best paint in the world but if you don't backprime, the life of the coating will be short.

For paint to last, it needs to block ultriviolet light, remain flexible so that it doesn't crack when the substrate moves, and it must have good adhesion.

The amount of solids control the blockage of ultriviolet light. Flexibility and adhesion are mostly a functionof the generic type (as far as what is in the can goes) None of these mfgs are reinventing the wheel. Paint technology is pretty much open book. The differences are mostily in the marketing hype, just like everything else.

I do not buy Duration paint. It is just too thick. I buy the one below it (can't remember what it is called). The low end paint is just very short on pigment.

One more thing to be said about pigment. Dark colors inherantly fade. Light pastell colors will often chalk. The amount of chalking is directly proportional to the amount of Titanium Dioxide in the paint and also the type of Titanium Dioxide. There are two basic types Rutile, and Anatase. Not sure the spelling . Its been a long time since I studied this. The Rutile is the best but rarely used because of its costs. The Anatase chalks more. Also the lighter the color the more it will chalk (it has more titanium dioxide in it). Flatter paints chalk more because the flatness is the result of more solids (and usually more titanium dioxide if it not a dark color). Generally speaking gloss paint will hold up longer than flat because the pigment is wrapped up in the acrylic and will not break down as quick.

It is possible to have too much pigment. Doubt that will happen out of the can but if you overthin the paint, you start f^&*( with the pigment volume concentration and when the thinner (water in the case of latex) evaporates, you will have exposed pigment which is prone to chalk and hence premature failure.

Some lower cost paints use more filler in substitute for color pigment. This will also cause streaking and other weathering patterns.

For all these reasons, I stick with the middle of the road. Marketing people will always want to have a low end to compete on price, and a high end for the person who is predisposed to have the very best. The middle of the road is usually the best buy.

I once compared sears intermediate paint with their high end. The ingrediants were the same except one had 2% more filler, just enough to be able to say it was different. But the price was 50% more. It ain't worth it.

Saying all that, if the owner thinks one brand is better over another, its better to by a little good will than to try and save them some money. Since I do everything cost plus, its their money anyway. Even if they want to buy the cheap stuff. I'll put on extra coats at my hourly rate, no problem.

Someone mentioned that quality is related to the amount of solids. That is probably true to a point. But I think Duration is going for the one coat application which I am opposed to and its too thick to apply two coats with.


glenn