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  1. #1

    Default No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    I have been asked to find a remedy for a framer who did not cut a birdsmouth on all the roof rafters which ar 2x6. The rafters are only nailed to the ceiling joist and have Teco clips from the plate to the rafter. The rafter are all laying on the outside corner of the plate and this is the only bearing point for the load. Does anyone have a fix for this situation without reframing the rafters such as possibly bolting something to each rafter and tieing it into the plate?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    187

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    Hi Fin,
    If you do a search for 'Simpson Strong Tie' they have proper devices for that application.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    SC/WA
    Posts
    224

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    Fin,
    Randolph's right. Simpson H1 and H10 ties can be used without a birdsmouth cut. They are a great timesaver but you may have to remove the existing tico clips. You may want to check first with the inspector to get his blessing before you proceed.
    Good Luck!
    Ian

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Caldwell, NJ
    Posts
    3,153

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    Why didn't he cut a birdsmouth on the rafters????????????

    Was it specked out like that on the plans?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Richmond Va.
    Posts
    752

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    If I understand correctly,the rafter is bearing on 3 1/2" and not sitting on the joist. So how much rafter is dangling inside the house?
    Here, if I were to put a 6in seat cut bearing on a 2x4 wall,it'll flunk inspection...it's not full bearing.What kind of 'tie' will fix that?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    I have done this in the past. You actually have full bearing of the rafter member. Is the room vaulted are is it flart celiing?

    I would just use the simpson product. and leave it at that...


    -Ty

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Caldwell, NJ
    Posts
    3,153

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    PDX,

    I've never seen that before. What is the purpose of doing it like that and then going back and putting some kind of Simson Tie?

    I'd like to know if this was on the plans that way unless the guy didn't no how to cut a birdsmouth.

    So when you did it did you have a mark at the end of the rafter where the outside of the plate would be to set the rafters?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    usually it has just been for small shed roofs with flat ceilings so there were collar ties accrouss the rafters....


    -Ty

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Caldwell, NJ
    Posts
    3,153

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    PDX,

    I can't see how using no birdsmouth is effective or even structural correct. I just nailed up 28' 2x12 rafters. Id like to see some shoemaker put those up with no birdsmouth and not nailing the rafter through a seatcut and into the top plate. Not saying you but that makes no sence to me and I will not take that as just another way of framing.

    Thor........ are you out there?????

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    Joe,

    I'm with you. I don't see how that could be "just another way" of framing a roof. I, myself just did a roof with 24' 2x12's. If I would have done something like that, I'd be working today changing it because the inspector would have asked me what the hell I was doing. There's no way you could nail that into the plate without splitting it all out. Then the nails wouldn't be doing much anyway.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Caldwell, NJ
    Posts
    3,153

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    John,

    I'm still waiting to see if Yellowfin will tell me if it was on the plans.

    I think I did actually see it once and it was on the top of a structural ridge in the Larry Haun video and I remember saying to myself how crazy it was. If I can find it I will look.

    I still say that threre's no way in the world why you would frame something like that especially like you and I said using 24' and 28' 2x12 rafters. I think it's a joke and the framer had no clue as to what he's doing.

    Even if someone comes up with some crazy simson tie why would you frame that way, how would you set the rafters without marking the outside of the plate unless you nail a block with the pitch angle as a stop at the plate what ties the rafter down to the top plate but the whole thing is ridiculous..........
    Attached Images Attached Images

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    63

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    hey don't get me wrong I never use this kind of aplication unless it is on very small projects and I have cut plenty of roofs ...
    Attached Images Attached Images

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Caldwell, NJ
    Posts
    3,153

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    Ian and Randolph,

    Where have you seen this and have you done this and what is the time savings and also was it on the plans that way?

    Is the time savings in cutting out the birdsmouth which takes about 2 seconds per rafter. Compare that to how long it takes to nail on a simson tie to every rafter even using hanger gun. So where is it a time saver and do you think it's as strong as a rafter with a birdsmouth that's nailed to the top plate. I'm talking about using 2x's for rafters not I-joists

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    39

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    Joe,

    Even if it was in the plans, why would any architect or engineer do that? I can't see any real benefit to not cutting a birdsmouth. Especially, in this day and age of bearing points and overkill on just about everything. You're right- it's ridiculous.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Port Orchard, WA
    Posts
    2,636

    Default Re: No birdsmouth on roof rafters

    Joe,

    I have seen this before. The guy (I've talked to you about him before) that taught me to frame like to use 2x6s for rafters, not cut a birdsmouth and then come back and build walls under the rafters at midspan or every 8' in the attic. I was still in high school so I didn't know any different, but what stupidity! He either did that or used 2x12 for vautled ceilings and then over cut the seatcut so that the heelstand was whatever made a 2x6 tail work. Imagine how long that seatcut was. Then he comes in and questions why I don't do that.

    We just finished a roof that was all 12-12 with all 2x12 and 1 3/4 x 14" lvl hips and valleys. Can you imagine what the seat cut would look like on those lvls if I cut them for a 2x6 tail?! I used a 13" heelstand to get about a 3" seatcut and it looks good. I did have one inspector try and fail a roof last spring because the seat cut wasn't big enough. It was 3" on 2x10s. I don't know what he was talking about.

    Here is a pic of a ceiling in progress from Thursday ( I went snowboarding yesterday :-)) that shows the rafters.

    http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/...8/78871475.jpg

    http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/...8/78871445.jpg

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