stock kitchen cabinets, no vertical?

[jason_dd]

Some clients would like to buy stock/non-custom kitchen cabinets for a modest renovation. They would like cabinets that have no vertical stile/support at the center between the two doors, as they feel this greatly limits their access. Any suggestions?

[GACC Dallas]

Jason,

We do this all the time. Maybe I don't understand the question. Twin doors (like under a kitchen sink) are the norm.

I wouldn't span more than 30" on a shelf, but if they want 10' of lowers with no bulkheads at all...well they can wish in one hand and sh*t in the other and see which one fills up. It can be done with steel supports, but you're talking custom-custom here. Nothing off the rack for that kind of order. We build cabinets all the time with no exposed stile and rail, but it's custom work.

There are manufactures out there who do modular manufactured cabinets that will give you the "look" they are going for, but they don't come from the big box boys and they have an impressive price tag.

You can't get a good steak at McDonalds.

Ed.

[jason_dd]

Ed:

I think you understood the question quite clearly. I knew it was possible in custom cabinets. They had been looking at Kraftmaid (again, modest renovation, their choice based on budget), and it seems all of their two-door uppers and most of their two door lowers have the middle stile.

I thought maybe someone might say "yeah! check out www.no-stiles-cabinets.com, great quality at low prices...".

Since most of their other cabinet desires are pretty simple, I am also going to suggest they price out custom work from a small shop. If anyone out there reading this is in the SF Bay Area (East Bay is a plus), and might want to look at making these cabinets, send me an email directly.

Thanks.

Jason

p.s. My dad couldn't hardly speak were it not for cliches. Your "in one hand..." was new to me, and I will forward to my pop for his use and abuse.

[Steve Price]

Jason

What you're describing are frameless or European style cabinets. If your client is on a real budget, I'd suggest you look at Ikea cabinets. For the price they are great. Being from the UK, I sort of grew up working with Ikea's cabinets and have assembled and installed many dozens of them without problem. They utilize a metal drawer similar to Blums metabox system and it includes a 5/8 thick drawer bottom. Try finding that on a Krap-ftmaid. I've also installed those a few times and they are garbage in comparison. especially for the price

If you want to go custom (Definitely worth it if they can afford it) I'd recommend talking to Craig Wise at Wise cabinetry in Danville. 925 820 6178. He doesn't build frameless, but his prices are very good and a much better product than kraftmaids

SJP

[jason_dd]

thanks for the good info steve. i don't think they are concerned about face frame/frameless, just that one center piece.

i will call craig wise, and will also look into ikea (easy trip to emeryville).

you know, at first i was a little hesistant mentioning kraftmaid on the forum, mainly for my own reputation (or lack thereof). but in reality it is their choice after we discussed the pros and cons of different possibilities for cabinets. good, bad or otherwise this is the sort of issue i deal with every day. not just in terms of quality or price, because i have had plenty of clients make some questionable decisions on some high quality very expensive materials. i try to work with folks and offer education, opinions and advice, without jamming dogma down their throughts. the end goal is that they are happy and comfortable with the whole project experience, not for me to either up-sell or manipulate them into something they may not want or need.

[Steve Price]

Jason

I agree. Price is by no means an indicator of quality, I've installed a lot of designer label cabinets and they are not worth the money, imho. Ikea has *similar* styles at a fraction of the cost. (The limitation is that they do not offer many different finishes or door styles) To some clients the designer nametag is worth every penny, and that's why I install what they want. I try to educate them on the many different options and price ranges available, but they have typically fallen in love with a particular style before we meet anyway

Another custom cab sub (& freind of mine) is Jay Spix in Sausalito 415 339 0228. He works in the east bay quite a bit and also builds european style cabs.

SJP

[jim@miterclamp.com]

Jason,

To paraphrase all the above: All European style cabinets are frameless or they would not be European Style cabinets.

No European style cabinets have stiles in the center of the box or anywhere else on the box.

Regards,

Clampman

[Steve Price]

Good point Clampman! However, not all frameless cabinets are European style....which is what I was trying to point out :)

SJP

[Stacey]

If you are using framed cabinets, most semi custom manufacturers will allow you to delete the center stile. They will butt joint the doors. You'll have a nice open area in the cabinet. I do it all the time with DeWils cabinets.


DeWils

[Bob Kovacs]

Jason-

I know I'll catch heat for it, but check out the Mills Pride cabs at Home Depot. I put them in my kitchen three years ago- around $1400 for the entire kitchen. They've got 3/4 particleboard boxes, and metal drawer sides- fully adjustable hinges, and no center divider on uppers or lowers.
My brother did his kitchen with Kraftmaid (with less cabinets), and the only obvious difference is the dovetailed drawers- personally I don't think they were worth the extra $4000.

The only thing I would suggest is using a finish nailer to attach the backs (they come knocked down) rather than driving the brads they give you. Oh...and bring a hand truck- those solid-packed boxes of particleboard are HEAVY!

Bob

[Mike Rooney]

Actually, a lot of low end cabinets lack the center stile. I had an apartment years ago with oak face frame cabs - rail & stile doors with a plywood panel. There was a thin strip of wood attached to one of the doors to fill the gap.
You always had to open one side before you could open the other but we got used to it.

you had to

[Michael DAnnolfo]

I just installed a bunch of cabinets from Lowes -American Woodmark brand from Virginia and they were framed cabinets with no middle stile or divider and just a strip behind one of the doors. Not a bad look, but you have to open one door and then the other. They were reasonably priced and pretty flexible on the design end for what I would call "semi" custom box cabinets. It was a small kitchen, 12 x 12, and ran about $2,600. After the kitchen was ordered it took 2 weeks for delivery. Pretty quick turnaround.

I agree with Bob too, I have installed the Mills Pride and they don't look that bad for the price. We usually use them when there are time constraints on a job and we need them asap for rentals or something. The door construction is lacking a bit, but for the price it's not a bad option.

[Mike Rooney]

American Woodmark has two of their plants in my little town (Moorefield, WVA). And they are building a third. One of my boys is trying to get in down there. 350 new jobs. I'm still working 140 miles away in D.C.

[jim@miterclamp.com]

Steve,

That's true. I very rarely use them myself in kitchen lowers since a solid toe kick is more than adequate to keep the narrow bottom rail from deflecting. The uppers are usually not so big an issue.

Clampmsn

[jason_dd]

Hey folks. Thanks for the good feedback. This turned into an interesting and informative little discussion.

I mentioned some of the possibilities to the owners. Their response (which I think makes good sense) is that they will first get a price from HD for the Kraftsmaid cabs as we laid out, despite the center stile. They will then take the same layout (as close as possible)to compare with the other manufacturers sans stile. They want to "compare apples with apples". While at first the center stile seemed like a deal breaker for them, they are realizing that it is just one ingrediant in the larger stew of quality, selection, price, service.... They are pretty sharp (but not "sharpies").

I typically discourage owners from price shopping among recommended contractors and subs (key words: owners, recommended). However, I think comparison shopping at the big boxes makes good sense for folks with time and not a lot of $$$.

Steve: btw, I spoke with Ken and Drew yesterday. They were both very helpful and I will drop some drawings in the mail/fax later this week to hopefully get them on board formally. Thanks!