Hinge screws and doors

[Simon Teller]

Bunch of hinge questions for you guys.

Who makes the best Vix bits? Why do the stores never carry vix bits larger than #8/10? I seem to get a lot of door hinges with #12 screws. Seems like the twist bit inside the vix bit is always to small for the screw for the larger sizes. I always have trouble with the brass screws when I only use a vix bit for the pilot hole. Its a lot of extra work to go back and enlarge the hole with a bigger bit after I have the center hole.
Last job the customer spent big bucks on Rocky Mountain hardware for all the doors. The Baldwin screws that came with the locks are so soft that even when I used a screwdriver I was damaging the screw heads slightly. This lady was going to kill me if the screws were not perfect. You know all X not + and the hardware was "oil rubbed bronze" so the strip marks are shinny brass and real obvious. So I ended up enlarging the vix hole with a bigger bit, waxing the screws and driving them by hand. Lemme tell you it worked but what a pain in the ass. I has blisters all over my hands by the end of the day. Lots of doors! Every attempt I made with a screw gun ended up with stripped heads or sheared the head right off.

Whats the best screw lubricant? I've heard bad things about using soap cause it draws water out of the wood? Parafin wont take paint if it gets on the door, etc. What are you guys using? What are paste wax and butchers wax anyway?

What tool do you use to remove hinge pins? I’ve been using a punch but I haven’t found one long enough to push the pin all the way out. What do you do about doors that have the bottom hinge real close to the floor and you can’t get the hammer under the punch? Just unscrew the hinge? Make your own tool for this? I try not to use my nail set.

When fitting a door, I don’t understand the part about the reveals. If you scribe the door in the opening and leave the same space all around. A lot of the time this changes after I mortise in the hinges. If the hinges are big they may make the hinge side gap bigger than the strike side even if they are mortised full depth. Am I making sense? How do you anticipate the barrel reveal? Shouldn’t this measurement determine the gap on both sides and top of the door so it looks consistent? Like say I scribe for 1/8 on all sides. Then the hinge barrel when fully closed seems to leave 3/16 space which pushes the door 1/16 toward the strike. I can’t set the hinges deeper so I end up planning 1/16 more off the strike side and cutting 1/16 off the top to make it all the same.
This seems to get me a lot with some brands of hinges. Btw I do bevel both sides of the door is that part of it? Usually 5 degrees on the strike side and 3 on the hinge side so the hinges don’t bind up. Am I doing something wrong?

When fixing old doors and you need to adjust the hinges. How do you fill the old screw holes when you have to move the screw over? I’ve used dowels and toothpicks and even wood shavings. What is best? What about filling in the sliver space left when you need to have a hinge just a bit?

Thanks for any help
Simon

[Derrell Day]

Have you tried an impact driver? It won't strip your screws going in or out.
I still use my nail punch to drive the pin about 1/3 of the way out, then I grab it with the claws of my straight claw hammer and flip it out and catch it in the pocket of my t-shirt. (This seems to make me feel sporty, although I'm usually by myself.)
I use kitchen matches to fill old screw holes but you can use your nail punch to start a hole right next to another sometimes. Fill the sliver with Mooreplastic from Benjamin Moore Paints if it's paint grade or with a colored putty stick if stain grade. Keep a good selection in your "door box".
Slightly bend hinges, with the pin removed, with a crescent wrench to adjust the reveal.

[andy]

Simon,

That's a lot of questions. To start, I would make sure you are using a cordless drill with a clutch to help stop the screws from stripping or breaking. Baldwin screws are designed with a flat area on the bottom of the head to set flush with the mortise (this appears to make the screw a little weaker). If you are predrilling with the right diameter you shouldn't have to lube or hand drive the screws.

Yes, #12 centering bits are hard to find, but they are out there. I had a vix brand #12 to use with the larger screws, but it did not drill deep enough. I still had to come back and redrill the hole. In hind sight, I would use a #10 centering bit and bore out larger with another bit. Make sure you are drilling deep enough.

I did a job with 60+ doors with baldwin steeple tip hinges and decided not to remove the hinge pins, but to unscrew the hinges when needed to remove the doors. As long as you don't overdrive the screws (drill with clutch) this will be o.k.

If stripping the screw continues to be a problem, consider using temporary steel screws while you are adjusting (2 or 3 per leaf). Once everything is set replace the temp screws with the nice brass.

On those reveals, consider shimming the hinges at the jamb before trimming the door. Some commercial hinge companies send these cardboard shims with the hinges. I make them from 30# felt paper. Insert 1/4" wide(x hinge hgt) shims behind the jamb leaf, near the stop, to pull the door closer to the hinge jamb; or insert the shims near the knuckle to push the door away from the hinge jamb. This technique allows you to adjust the gap without removing the door completely (assuming 3 hinges are used).

To fill old screw holes, completely drill out the hole to receive a 3/8" (+or-) dowel, glue the dowel in, trim off flush when dry. When possible, drill the dowel hole deep to reach the stud behind the jamb. This will help hold the dowel tighter and transfer some of the door weight to the stud.

Above all, if you are going to do a lot of door hanging, get the "Door Hangers Handbook" (verify title) by Katz. The door prep table/bench described in this book is very helpful.

And remember to tell the client that squeaking hinges add character to the house and will cost extra.

Good luck, Andy.

[Simon Teller]

Thanks guys

Derrell, I use my claw hammer on those kind of hinges too. Never tried to catch it! Too clarify though I was talking about the hinges that have screw in caps or decorative finials, the real expensive ones not Schlage builder hardware that I install like every Joe. Theres no head on the pin to grab.

About the hinge spaces. In the past I have tried many things to fill in spaces left when moving hinges slightly. 1/8 or so. I’ve had then best luck glueing in a sliver of wood cut on the table saw if the hinge is moved sideways on a warped door. Planed down after drying, it works good. Not so for hinges moved up or down. Every time I used putty/bondo or whatever goop it cracks and falls out when the painter removes the hinge. Or it sticks to the hinge better than the door.

Andy
Yeah I did eventually find a #12. Not good quality though what brand are you guys using? Your right about the depth. The hole made is too small and never deep enough. I’ve been starting with the vix, then switching to a twist bit the same size as the core of the screw so only the threads bite. Seems like the vix is a waster of time. Wasn’t it designed to eliminate this task?
I have a screw gun with clutch & and impact driver. They both work ok when I enlarge the hole and use lube. If I don’t then the screws heat up so bad they distort or strip or break. Even with a screwdriver, the vix hole alone makes too much friction and I can’t finish driving cause the Baldwin screws don’t really cut when they bottom out in the hole. What I was looking for was a less time consuming method. Seems like I’m using a lot of tools and taking a lot of time for such a simple operation.

I don’t understand your shim comments. I use cardboard and other shims to move the hinge leaves but not in this situation. Putting shims in would decrease the gap at the strike side making the problem worse. My problem is that I scribe the door for a thin reveal all around. Then the hinges push the door toward the strike leaving a hinge side reveal bigger than my scribe. Like the hinges don’t fold flat enough on some brands to match my scribed reveal. Maybe I’m just a blockhead and don’t understand whats going on here.

I have Garys book btw it’s great.

[vanderpooch]

Simon,
Here's a link for some self-centering bits...




lee valley vix bits

[Gary Wiese]

There is couple of things I would not do, for one, I only bevel the strike side. There is no need to bevel the hinge side if you are sqaure in the opening and I have found the if the hing side is beveled it leaves a bigger gap, because the hing is not getting a chance to close all the way. I have tried many times to bend the hing with a cresent wrench, but was afraid I was going rip the screw out of the door or jam. If the hinges are the good heavy duty ones I don't think I could bend them anyway.

Gary W.

[Gary Katz]

Try and buy the original Vix bits and not the cheaper imports. The original ones have two Allen screws, not one.

Also, the large one, for #12 screws, is great for fir, pine, and solid-core doors, but you have to drill again with a larger twist bit when you're working with maple, oak, cherry, etc. Still, the Vix is worth the effort because it centers the hole perfectly.

I have remodeled one vix bit and installed a larger bit in the #8 holder, so it's easier to install those screws in hardwood doors.

Check out this link for a neato hinge-pin remover. Al C. will like this tool! Kirk Grodske showed it to me and I thought he was nuts (a real tool freak), but I'm sold. It's a handy tool for door hangers (and carpet installers!).

I understand (after considering the idea for several minutes) this theory of shiming hinges to move the door either closer or further from the strike jamb, but I can't imagine how it could work very effectively without ending up with hinges that are pround or buried in the jamb. If you can't bend the hinges (spread with the nail set; squeeze with the crescent wrench) because they're soft and might scratch, then chiseling deeper or shimming seem to be the only effective way of 'adjusting' the gap, short of dropping the door for another lick with the plane.

Kitchen matches, man, always carry a box. And 2p-10 glue!!! The instant screw-hole fix. I used to use hot glue, and for installing backing in cylindrical bores that were being changed to mortise locks, but the 2P-10 is great for that, too.

As for your scribes: I spread my scribes about 3/16 in. which allows for the gap and the bevel, though the spread of my scribes is related/dependent on the angle I've set my plane to bevel. Right?

Gary


http://www.flooringtool.com/miscx.html

[Al Constan]

To remove the hinge pin I push it up with a nail punch and remove it completely with the help of an old 1/2" chisel.
The tool that GK talks about combines the two tools I use into one and it seems to me like a great little tool to own.
I will get one. Thanks for the tip Gary and for the about $ 300 worth of tools I received from you when I was at your clinic in Orange County a few weeks ago.

When I work with 4" hinges and I have problems with the existing holes in the jamb I remove the pin and reinsert it in the opposite direction. Now the hole pattern in the hinge has changed and it does not match the existing hole pattern in the jamb.
The hole pattern in 4" hinges is not symmetrical as is the case in 3 1/2" hinges.

In one occasion I was forced to cheat on the plumbing of a prehung door because the wall was so out of plumb. The door when open at any degree will shut by itself.
I corrected the problem by bending the hinge pins and lubricating them to avoid any squeak.
A contractor shared this trick with me and it did work wonders in that occasion.

Darrel Day
The catching of the hinge pin in the pocket of your T shirt is a good one. I enjoyed your "originality". It made me laugh.

I respect those who prefer shimming hinges instead of bending.
I only shim when bending becomes prohibitive.
No matter how accurately I scribe a door I almost always have to adjust the reveal by playing with the hinges.
My two cents.
Al

[andy]

Simon,

The hinge shimming technique can increase the gap at the strike side. By placing a thin (1/4" wide) vertical strip behind the jamb hinge leaf, near the stop, the door will move toward the hinge jamb. This will open up the reveal at the strike side. You are not shimming the entire leaf, just one edge.

There is a limit to how much you can shim or, as Gary stated, the hinge may become too proud of the jamb. It is a great way to make fine adjustments to the reveal.

The "bending the hinge" technique is o.k. for cheaper rolled hinges, but is very risky for cast brass hinges, like baldwin. I would think the mfgr would not agree with this technique.

Andy.

[Gary Katz]

I've been bending all types of hinges for years, and have seen signs of other carpenters having bent hinges on historic homes (tell-tale wrench marks even on Westminster hinges--a particularly tough hinge to adjust). It's a particularly effective technique when you're working with commercial steel doors and 4 1/2 in. heavy-duty hinges on steel jambs--just be sure to use a bigger crescent wrench (I also use the bumper on my truck to bend steel doors in cross-legged jambs).

As usual, I believe that each carpenter should develop their own techniques, ones their comfortable with. The ones I use I'm comfortable with. I don't bend Baldwin hinges too often, but I've done it occasionally.

And I always put the same bevel on the hinge side as the strike side. First the hinge bevel eliminates the possiblity of jamb bind (a problem when you're hanging a new door in an old jambs that's tweaked, warped a little, etc.) and it eliminates hinge bind by opening the hings slightly, which also allows me to bend the hinges a little more (Squeeze). Beveling the hinge stile doesn't alter or affect the gaps at all.

I didn't come up with any of these technique on my own; I learned them from pro-door hangers who butt-bevel-bore 30-40 doors a day.
Right or wrong? I don't know. I only know that these techniques work.
Gary

[Kirk Grodske]

Gary mentioned a tool I showed him and then put int he link to the pry bar he uses.

The correct tool is the Pin-Ez and a working link is: http://www.lara.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?oc=PINEEZ

By the way, the pry bar is an excellant tool for setting doors, and Gary showed ME that one.

Kirk Grodske


http://www.lara.com/cgi-bin/store/co....cgi?oc=PINEEZ

[Derrell Day]

Al,

Technical proficiency does have it's place.. but being "sporty" is far more important.

[Joe]

If you can get your hands on a box of 16D finishing nails, they will drive the pins out quite well. If you don’t like the nail idea then you can use a “drift pin”, it has a longer shank then a nail set.

It also seems I fall a little to the right of Gary on two statements he made. The first being:

“Try and buy the original Vix bits and not the cheaper imports. The original ones have two Allen screws, not one.”

Mine are stamped with the “Vix Bit” and they only have one set screw. Some of these bits are 16 years old. . .

The other statement: “Beveling the hinge stile doesn't alter or affect the gaps at all.” It has been my experience that the great the angle of the hinge back bevel the further the door moves from the hinge jamb making the gap bigger.




Hinge Pic's

[Clampman]

Simon'

For my sixty nine cents worth, toilet bowl wax rings ("John E Rings" without the flange)are the best buy for screw lube. Now they even come in handy plastic trays instead of sandwiched between two sheets of plastic wrap. The screws stand at attention when you stick them in it. I've even been thinking of making a little carousel for them. (Just kidding).
I only use wax for long screws through the hinge, jamb and into the stud. (you can decrease the hinge reveal and increase the strike reveal this way too).

You can use a beater block to spread the legs from the head jamb. You can bend the hinges. You can use thin shims front or aft and can put glue on one side so they stay in the mortise. There are a lot of options.

I back bevel both sides too, and if I'm doing retro fit work it takes longer per door than if I were doing a house full from scratch. I probably leave a bigger reveal than you. I've never had anyone complain about too big a reveal, and I haven't been back to plane sticking doors in a lot of years. That was not the case when I first started out doing the nickel thing.

I now use a go/no go method like the machinists. If the door goes through with the stops attached, it's a no go and I have to do it all over again.

Good luck,

Clampman

[Steve]

Driving soft hinge screws: Make sure you're using the right size bit; most #12 screws are #3 Philips and a #2 bit will really mess them up. It's a continual argument I have going with painters that remove finish hardware. They think a #2 is good for everthing and can't understand the difference. Also, make sure your drill is perfectly square to the screw head, not cocked around. For the occasional "accident" with 10B screws, I have a fine-point dark-brown marker to fix things up; available at art supply stores.

To drive up hinge pins, I use a transfer punch, which is a long, thin pin punch. It's available in almost any dia you want; available at auto parts stores.

Auto parts stores also have a stick lube called "Door Ease;" supposed to be used for lubing door latches, etc on cars but it's the greatest screw lube made, far as I'm concerned.

If you're driving a bunch of screws, for instance when you're pre-hinging dozens of doors and jambs, you can double the battery life of your cordless with just the tinyest dab of Door Ease on the screw tip. And you don't usually have to "double-drill" in hard materials when you use this stuff. I have a tube of this goop in my bags all the time and it's long been second nature to swipe every screw and bolt with it before driving it. It's almost good enough to eat!¿Kinking" hinges is a no-no, I think, after ruining a few ball-bearing hinges years ago. Kinking hinges in place on cheap pre-hungs usually means that the screws, which are probably stripped out by the pre-hangers anyway, are even weaker that before. If you have to remove the hinge to bend it by "whatever means" anyway, I think it's easier to shim it. Experience tells me how much; it's pretty easy.

Gary; great tip re: the kitchen matches! I wondered why I had a box around my house I'll never use; it just went into my truck.