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  • use of drywalls ?

    i took a straw poll. due to blatent vote rigging the result is, you guys use drywall screws for everything :)

    seriously.............

    a number of threads ive "seen" here, use them for timber/timber connections

    i find that bugle heads split thin timber and they shear easily in timber/timber connections

    the longest i buy is 2 inch for double skin drywall but they are avaliable much longer than this

    i also know you guys arnt daft. so my questions are. what are 3 inch and more drywalls used for and why use drywalls for timber/timber connections ?
    Limey Carpenter

  • #2
    Re: use of drywalls ?

    I use 1-5/8" to 2" drywalls all the time for cabinet box construction. I sometimes use 2-1/2" and 3" behind door hinge butts into framing. I have actually used to hang cabinets alot in the past. I've never had an issue with call backs etc because drywall screws were used to hang the cabs. A 3" drywall is actually a pretty thick screw.

    For a while I've used several brands of "cabinet" screws and also used square drive deck screws that matched the color if the cabimnet. After trying alot of options I REALLY like the GRK screws. I use 2-1/2" to 3-1/8" GRKs to hang the cabinets and thier trim heads to join the stiles. I try to use the grks as much as possible but have no prob using drywall or deck screws for securing the base cabs.

    For other wood to wood applications I use square drive deck screws. They have a self drilling tip, are very strong and the #2 square doesn't cam out easily.
    http://www.putfile.com/jeffaah/images/107329

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: use of drywalls ?

      Originally posted by Tom Bainbridge View Post


      i also know you guys arnt daft. so my questions are. what are 3 inch and more drywalls used for and why use drywalls for timber/timber connections ?
      Truth is drywall aren't approved for use for anything except drywall installation. Different length drywall screws are made different thickness of drywall, multiple thicknesses of drywall in renovations and fire assemblies and the installation of drywall over plaster in renovations.

      In our building codes you can't use them in any timber connection. The American Woodworking Institute (AWI) Quality Standards forbids them in the assembly or installation of casework. The reason being they are brittle and will fail in shear.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: use of drywalls ?

        Originally posted by dave_k View Post
        The American Woodworking Institute (AWI) Quality Standards forbids them in the assembly or installation of casework. The reason being they are brittle and will fail in shear.

        Funny think about AWI. I'm installing a bunch of AWI approved cabinets in condos right now. They are built like absolute crap. Cheap hotglue and short staples are all that is holding these things together. Now you say according to AWI that drywall screws are prohibited. But a drywall screw would make these cabinets 1000x better.

        I'm not advocating the use of drywall screws for things other then drywall.....but IMO a drywall screw provides enough strength for many applications. I assemble cabinets boxes in a variety of ways... nails, drywalls, pocket screws, biscuits and use glue with all of them. Now I hang them with the GRK screws. I'm 100% confident that the wall my cabinets are mounted to will fail before my cabinets will.
        http://www.putfile.com/jeffaah/images/107329

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        • #5
          Re: use of drywalls ?

          Cool, somebody still using drywall screws for cabinets. I made a fair amount of money in the past simply testifying that finish nails and drywall screws were inappropriate and inadequate for hanging cabinets.

          This was after they fell off the wall and crashed through the $30k copier (all those reams of paper, you know). Or after somebody's kid got back from the hospital (all those dishes in kitchen cabinets, you know).

          100% confidence will cost you someday. Hope that you find yourself paying for the copier and don't have to live with the image of the scars on the child's face.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: use of drywalls ?

            Jeff,

            I am with you on the minimum AWI specs, they are so low in quality that whale crap is higher than they are.

            As for the screws I find drywall screws brittle, so I carry a wide assortment of other types of screws.

            For hanging cabinets I have never used a flat head screw always used wafer heads. For joining cases there are so many colored screws you can find one that matches closely.

            Tj
            http://chicagocraftsmen.org/2011/06/261.html

            Check with the AHJ, what we say doesn't matter.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: use of drywalls ?

              Originally posted by NW Architect View Post
              Cool, somebody still using drywall screws for cabinets. I made a fair amount of money in the past simply testifying that finish nails and drywall screws were inappropriate and inadequate for hanging cabinets.

              This was after they fell off the wall and crashed through the $30k copier (all those reams of paper, you know). Or after somebody's kid got back from the hospital (all those dishes in kitchen cabinets, you know).

              100% confidence will cost you someday. Hope that you find yourself paying for the copier and don't have to live with the image of the scars on the child's face.
              I don't hang uppers with drywalls....I use "cabinet screws". Any box I make is well constructed with joinery, glue and fasteners.

              I have installed hundreds of kithens from custom cabinet companies. 95% of them are assembled with glue, nails and drywalls.....and now pocket screws are becoming more popular. I don't think I have ever seen a cab made with a traditional wood screw.

              I totally agree that drywalls are brittle. Put enough stress on a single screw and it will snap. But the additive strength of all the other combined elements in the construction of my cabinet boxes is tremendous.

              What would be your approved fastener for assembling plywood boxes? Do you think a deck screw would be more appropriate for case construction since they are stronger?

              As I said before, I'm not an advocate for drywalls. I'm more playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion. People will learn more this way.
              Last edited by jeffaah; 06-27-2009, 07:30 PM.
              http://www.putfile.com/jeffaah/images/107329

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: use of drywalls ?

                Originally posted by tjbnwi View Post
                Jeff,

                For hanging cabinets I have never used a flat head screw always used wafer heads. Tj

                Try the GRK cabinet screws or GRK RSS screw. They are great.
                http://www.putfile.com/jeffaah/images/107329

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: use of drywalls ?

                  Originally posted by jeffaah View Post
                  Funny think about AWI. I'm installing a bunch of AWI approved cabinets in condos right now. They are built like absolute crap. Cheap hotglue and short staples are all that is holding these things together. Now you say according to AWI that drywall screws are prohibited. But a drywall screw would make these cabinets 1000x better.
                  The AWI has quality standards for 3 grades of product, economy, custom and premium. That covers everything from cheap tract builders to premium casework, not just the high end stuff. For casework joinery, among the 6 methods listed, they allow "stop dado, glued with pressure and either nailed, stapled or screwed", and this type of joinery is allowable for all 3 grades. There is a note saying no drywall screws (only heavy shank steel screws) but nothing on nail or staple size. There is no acceptable hot melt glue approved for case construction. However if you've ever worked with 3M jetweld you would have complete confidence in that stuff to hold casework together. In my experience dadoed joints made with PVA glue and clamped will result in a stronger than wood joint in itself. Personally I use #6 x 1-3/4" lo-roots on this kind of joint but some of the guys on woodweb swear by staples. I would have complete confidence in this joint IF it was done properly. One thing to remember, the specs override Awi standards. What usually happens is the architect refers all work to conform to awi standards in the spec then we build and install to the standard. If the architect specs something else or doesn't spec Awi standards at all Awi shops don't have to follow the standards. If the cabinets are falling apart they aren't properly built regardless of any standard. In my experience if you follow the standard you get a pretty good product.

                  Originally posted by jeffaah View Post
                  I'm not advocating the use of drywall screws for things other then drywall.....but IMO a drywall screw provides enough strength for many applications. I assemble cabinets boxes in a variety of ways... nails, drywalls, pocket screws, biscuits and use glue with all of them. Now I hang them with the GRK screws. I'm 100% confident that the wall my cabinets are mounted to will fail before my cabinets will.
                  The problem with drywall screws is the are so brittle the torque of screwing them into wood fractures them at the head. If seen this happen a lot. If your using them in joinery where they are essentially a clamp until the glue sets and you are careful not to over torque them there's no harm. I would never rely on them for installation or where they are being loaded in shear though. Personally I just keep them out of the shop and use wood screws for woodwork. They're great for drywall though
                  Last edited by dave_k; 06-27-2009, 07:49 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: use of drywalls ?

                    Dave K

                    I looked into the lo-root screws and have seen them before. They were black and looked just like drywalls except for the #2 square drive. I assume they are stronger then drywalls....and the drive and thread are better too.

                    What is a good place to order them online? I have some in a cart at cabinetmart.com and am waiting to order. I think a box of 1000 1-3/4 #8 lo roots are $23.00 US.

                    See...this is why I play devils advocate....you learn something better
                    http://www.putfile.com/jeffaah/images/107329

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: use of drywalls ?

                      Originally posted by jeffaah View Post
                      Dave K

                      What is a good place to order them online? I have some in a cart at cabinetmart.com and am waiting to order. I think a box of 1000 1-3/4 #8 lo roots are $23.00 US.
                      I'm a creature of habit and don't shop around that much.

                      #6 x 13/4" are selling at Hefela for $9.90/1000 CAD in boxes of 5000. #8 x 1-3/4" is $11.90/100 CAD in boxes of 4000. If you don't have an account I'm pretty sure they take credit card orders at the online store.

                      The part # for #6 is 010.24.950
                      #8 is 010.24.970

                      I'm glad you do play devils advocate Jeff, it makes for good discussions and we all learn something. I'm a big admirer of the work that you've shared with us and the considerable knowledge and skill you've conveyed in your posts.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: use of drywalls ?

                        Originally posted by jeffaah View Post
                        Try the GRK cabinet screws or GRK RSS screw. They are great.
                        Yep those are wafer style heads.

                        I have used there screws but not for cabs.

                        Use more of these because they are locally available and they will accept a cover;

                        http://www.fastcap.com/powerheadscrewswood.aspx

                        Tj
                        http://chicagocraftsmen.org/2011/06/261.html

                        Check with the AHJ, what we say doesn't matter.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: use of drywalls ?

                          Most real carpenters know what fastener will work in each situation and use the correct one.

                          Too many hobbyists saw Norm Abrams use drywall screws to build his furniture and extrapolated that they would work everywhere. Many don't know the difference in metallurgy between pocket screws, drywall and deck screws. There are posts in this thread that illustrate that.

                          After having some success or lack of failure, they have extrapolated the use of the screws in other areas.

                          While my kitchen cabinets have been hanging for over 50 years on finish nails, I won't be hanging any of my customers cabinets with them, if for no other reason than the wood and nails are different quality now.

                          Fortunately, there are forums and magazines like JLC that help correct misinformation and spread education and I for one am thankful.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: use of drywalls ?

                            For uppers, these screws seem to work best for me, and considering I buy them by the thousand, I'll have enough to last awhile. I've found them useful for all different types of applications.

                            They're called Fastcap powerheads

                            http://wwhardware.com/showimage.cfm/...tid/FCPHZ8X212


                            Woodworkers hardware has them and if you buy the flush mount bit kit, you can recess them and plug the cabinet body so you can't even see them when installed. You just have to be careful not to flush set them if the cabinet back is thin or doesn't have a cleat for hanging the box.

                            http://wwhardware.com/showimage.cfm/...ductid/FCMICRO


                            Jeffah,

                            Nothing wrong with using drywall screws when fabricating boxes. They're primarily being used for "clamping" the parts together until the glue dries anyway.
                            Chuck

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: use of drywalls ?

                              thank you for the answers

                              for cabinet work based on vaneerd MDF, 19mm finished

                              the best screws are 3.5x45mm hafele product code 015.31.719

                              drive with an impact driver and NO pilot hole, the length ovecomes any screw jacking

                              drive no closer than 3 inches from the panel edge to avoid splitting the mdf

                              on the butt joint use the glue very sparingly

                              removing excess glue from a vaneer that is only 0.5mm thick (1/50th inch) is difficult because the glue soaks the full thickness
                              Limey Carpenter

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