steel frame homes

[Guest]

I am getting ready to build a new home near Seattle.I am strongly leaning towards steel. I was hoping to see more shared experience on the mssg boards out there but there's not much. I see many good reasons to use steel but have a concern about the true cost/benefit ratio compared to wood. I would have to factor into this the OJT costs of a local sub taking on the erector project. What can you tell me as to why steel homes aren't more common and why there isn't more talk about them - good or bad? Thanks.

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

The biggest problem is when they are used for exterior walls and roof framing. Thermal conductivity to be exact. Let me explain further. Have you ever been in a metal building on a hot summer day? You can literally hear the metal popping from the rapid expansion that occurs because the metal readily changes temperature. In a house, this leads to cracking in the sheetrock. Another reason is most residential framers lack the necessary experience and more importantly the necessary tools to construct homes with metal. You shouldn't have any problems constructing interior wall with them though. I'm curious, what are your reasons for wanting to go with steel? Have you thought of ICF's aka insulating concrete forms? 20% of all new homes in Portland last year were constructed with ICF's.

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

There was an article on steel framing houses not to long ago - I can't remember for the life of me where I read it - And it discussed the pros & cons . JLC had an article in June 2000 about switching to steel -

I think for residential use there is a resistance on the part of most contractors use it. It would have to be a significant cost savings for most to consider it. We tired old dogs and The thought of trying to cut the stuff just kills me. I prefer to hear my circ saw gnawing away at good ole wood...

I do use it for non sructural partition work - Especially where a dead Strait wall is desired..

my 2cents
MPS

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Check with your local building dept. They may not allow steel framed houses, I know mine don't. They are hard to calculate loads, unlike wood studs are.

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Mike and Steve,

Thanks for your quick responses.

Steve, these are well insulated walls (R30) with the metal never seeing the heat (or cold - I guess there are insulating barriers applied to the external steel structure) of day. And we're not known for high heat around here, so that is not a concern. The two people I've talked to, who have brushed up against a steel house have made no mention of cracking wall board - a problem in many homes for numerous reasons.

But I think you both hit upon the real answer - Mike, you did so directly with that "old dog/wood cutting" comments. It's sticking with what we know and love - and making MONEY. NO homeowner has ever liked the idea of paying for OJT so the onus is on the contractor to do what he knows and do it quickly. Until the cost of wood breaks the cost of labor threshold, the industry will not move in the direction of steel.

Now steel is used almost exclusively for commercial and small commercial at that. Something made that feasible and I suspect it's the necessary advantage of being able to move partitions when and where the new occupants decide.

But why steel for me? I like concrete (not gypcrete) and that's what my floors will be. And I like the idea of steel supporting it. Why not continue with steel walls and all else. Fewer members, greater strength. Open floor plans. No squeaks. Utility routings already cut. Prefab for easy assembly. R30. Bug proof. Reduced environmental impact (no trees - recycled cars). I never hear a good reason for not doing it. Mostly what I hear is the old "That's not the way we do things here."

It's all there. Where are the GC's? Clinging to what they know...

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

I'm presuming by your response that you are going to build on a slab. I wish I could remember some of the articles I'm using to draw upon but one in particular stands out. That showed heat image photography of steel framed walls as compared with wood frame. (They didn't compare to ICF's or other construction methods.) The steel studs in cold weather were sometimes 30 degrees colder than the sheetrock they were attached to. This was because they were attached to a concrete slab. Even with thermal breaks the studs still remained 10 degrees or so colder than the sheetrock they were attached to. This led to cold spots on the walls every 16 inches. I'm sure this could be minimized by insulating your slab (not a bad idea anyway) or building with a wood subfloor built over crawlspace foundation. The real kicker though is what I referred to in my last message. If you use steel ceiling joists and rafters, you'll really have problems because in the heat of the day, those ceiling joists will rapidly expand, and then at night rapidly contract. This is what leads to most of the sheetrock cracks, not the studs in the wall. This is a problem that I have yet to hear of any solutions that worked for any length of time. From looking at your reasons for wanting steel, I would still tell you to consider ICF's. You can start by checking at www.icfweb.com. To tell you the truth, I've built some steel houses, but recently I became a distributor for Eco-Block ICF's so I'm definately partial to the latter.

I hope some of this helps in your research.




www.icfweb.com

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

I want you to check out the link below. Please read it carefully. It's in dry scientific speak, but the table at the end of the page speaks volumes. Metal studs simply don't perform as well as their wood counterparts in real world R-Value tests. I realize the metal framing system that you are probably considering has 8 inch wall cavities and not the 3.5 inch used in this study, but the drop in r-value when considered in real world terms is far greater than that of wood.

I would be remissed to not point out that EPS foam forms systems (insulating concrete forms) performed the best by far under real world conditions.




http://www.ornl.gov/roofs+walls/arti...ngs/index.html

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

I hate to continue beating this poor horse, but here's a link to an interactive R-Value calculator from the same site.




http://www.ornl.gov/roofs+walls/calculators/index.html

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Steve,

Thanks for you detailed consideration of the subject.I've scanned the artilce you ref'd (finally something to sink my teeth into) and see what you mean now. I'll look into this further, but the "R30" touted is between the studs. I know that when I lived in Fairbanks there was a heat-loss study done that showed the rapid heat transfer at the nails in wood studs and the loss there somewhat negating the R30 wall.Now, they talk about insulating the steel stud itself - and I'm not sure how much that would help, but I do see now what you were getting at with the expansion problem. I have alot of vaulted ceilings in the design so there would be a sheetrock problem there on the South-facing side.

Most of the house is over basement but some is over slab. But it's all RFH which should pass heat from slab to stud as the direction of transfer. And again our winters average 40 degrees so the invasive penetrating cold that I experienced in Fairbanks is not a concern.

I had considered the ICF type construction but a quick look made it seem that materials AND labor ruled them out. Cost is one of the prime (if not "the") citeria that I'm basing my determination on. If it turns out that with the other factors you've mentioned, steel also costs more to buy (it's prefabbed + labor) and then OJT costs to errect, I'll probably return to wood.

Thanks also for stating your bias on ICF's. And now that I know that maybe you'd care to elaborate on the cost/benefit anaysis of this construction technique.I'll look at the web site you recommended too. Nothing has been reuled out or in. Thanks again for your interest - and the horse is still standing...

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Stacy,

Good point. Where do you live?

Not being able to do the calculation sounds like a very weak excuse to me. Designers, builders, owners have the plans gone through by an Engineer and this is what the County accepts. They check the calculations but I'm not aware of them "doing" them - liability (and too much responsibility).

I know of several steel homes on Whidbey and others I've heard about on the mainland. I'm thinking these were permitted.

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Jeff,

The forumn members have brought up some points that are good but I believe you're also getting some bad advice mixed in.

Although the thermal conductivity issue of the walls can be a problem if left unchecked, it is also easily solved by the addition of a thermal break between the steel stud and the exterior sheathing. We have used E-foil (a double foil faced bubble wrap product with an R value of 5). E-foil provides the required thermal break which will eliminate ghosting, caused by the steel stud being cooler than the sheetrock, and improve the thermal efficiency of the wall. The e-foil also gives the additional benefit of a vapor barrier.

Take a look at some of the pre-engineered packages that use 8' center to center red iron main frames. (Classic Steel Framed Homes, Excalibur Homes, etc) These 8' c-c frames virtually eliminate the thermal conductivity issue with the roof rafters and ceiling joists. My gut feel is that a 2.5" wide x 8" deep steel ceiling joist spaced every 8' is more thermally efficient than a set of 6-2x8 joists set on 16" c-c. There is almost 4 times the area to transmit heat in the wood framed home.

Most of the issues raised with steel framing are easily abated with an adjustment of construction means and methods. You will be disappointed if you try to build a steel framed structure using the same construction means and methods that you use for a wood frame sturcture. (try driving a nail into 12 gauge floor joist //ha,ha, feeble attempt at humor)

From forumn member:¿Have you ever been in a metal building on a hot summer day? You can literally hear the metal popping from the rapid expansion that occurs because the metal readily changes temperature. In a house, this leads to cracking in the sheetrock."

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ABSURD! We are not talking about a metal barn here. Think about all the comnmercial buildings built with steel...when you go into your bank, lawyers office, or church are they being ripped apart by thermal expansion and contraction of the steel? I don't think so. You will see far less sheetrock call-backs in a steel framed home than any wood framed home.

My advice to you is to talk with some experienced steel framers in you area, talk with the owners of steel framed homes, and then make an educated informed decision.

Sorry for rambling so long.

Good Luck

Mark Beggs, P.E.
Beggs Residential Steel Construction, Inc.

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Mark,

Thanks for the input. I've been checking back in to see if this thread would come alive again.

I hear your points and consider them valid. I also consider that you have a vested interest in the subject although I don't feel this degrades the validity of your input.

Have you checked the link provided by Steve Lane. It is very detailed and reached some interesting conclusions. What I got from it was a couple of things: A) steel was not that bad in terms of the final column (ratio whole wall/clear wall) especially considering it was a 3 1/2" stud not the one I see being commonly used, the 8" and B) the primary heat lose seems to me at "connections" wall to roof, cutouts, doors/windows, etc.

A couple of more things: What do you use to frame in between the 8' openings?; There aren't many steel contractors around here (heavy on the residential experience) for me to get a feeling for what's going on.

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Yes, I'm familiar with the Oak Ridge National Laboratory Testing's report. I might be wrong, but I believe the conclusion from that report was to provide a thermal break of at least an R5 between the sheathing and metal stud. (I may be confusing this with the report for the ghosting problem.)

We use 20 gauge 8" steel studs on 24" c-c between the red iron columns. I deal with Classic Steel Frame Homes out of Houston. They're a subsidiary of NCI. You can check out their web page at www.metalhomes.com . Another good source of information for you is www.excalibursteel.com . You can also ask questions and check out the steel frame home forum moderated by Guy Millard with Excalibur at www.BuildingOnline.com/cgi-bin/netforum/bol/a/3--36

In my opinion, the best system for a home would utilize a hybrid system using ICF walls and a red iron floor joists and roof system. I believe Excalibur has done a project like this. You get the benefits of great thermal performance of the ICF walls and the strength and clear span capabilities of the red iron framing.

...Mark

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Mark has some good points, but I have to take at least some issue with some of his "apples to oranges" comparisons.

First, commercial buildings, banks, churches, etc., don't experience the thermal conductivity problems IN THE CEILING because they have drop ceilings. I don't think you'd really want drop ceilings in your house, unless you were going for that "industrial look".

Second, Mark never suggests a solution to the conductivity problem between your slab and walls. I made a couple, insulating the slab, or using a wood over crawlspace foundation. I would be interested in hearing if he has some others.

I think it's important to understand where I'm coming from on this. About 5 or 6 years ago I really became interested in steel for all of the obvious benefits. After careful research, reality set in.

The bubble pack is an excellent idea, one that clearly seems to deal with some of the issues we're talking about. It wasn't in use when I originally was interested in steel. The "red iron" is another. This would allow you to use wood for your ceilings thus eliminating the thermal issue there.

And the hybrid suggestion seems really intriguing. I've always thought the only shortcoming of ICF's, at least in terms of strength, is the roof, since it's still made with wood. This would address this issue in an excellent way. I'm about a year away from constructing my personal house, and this idea is now at the top of my list.

Finally, the expansion and contraction to which I have referred is RAPID. Which is the crux of the issue. A 40 degree temperature change in an attic is common. Wood can handle that but metal cannot. (I'm talking in reference to sheetrock here, not strength.) I've heard talk of some talk about thermal breaks between rafters and ceiling joists, maybe Mark has some experience there.

I hope this clears up some of my analogies.

[Guest]

Re: steel frame homes

Steve,

The issue dealing with thermal conductivity, commercial buildings, drop ceilings, etc.

Look at a red iron system using a scissor truss. This type of system will separate the roof rafter from the ceiling joist. For example in a home with an 8:12 pitch, the red iron frame will have a rafter with an 8:12 pitch but the ceiling joist will have a 6:12 pitch. This separates the ceiling joist from the roof rafter and provides for a well ventilated attic with room for adequate insulation. The only thermal short would be at the intersection of the column and the ceiling joist which only occurs every 8'. A little e-foil used as a house wrap will eliminate that one. No drop ceilings here. (You also need to keep in mind that there are metal purlins, with 1/2" plywood sheathing attached, connecting the frames. Take a look at the construction details at the web sites of companies selling red iron framed homes.)

The issue regarding the conductivity problem at the intersection of the wall and slab. We typically install a continuous insulating foam between the bottom track and the concrete basement wall.

Steve I strongly disagree with your comment regarding steel, rapid contraction and expansion, steel causing sheetrock cracks etc. This is something I have not experienced. As a matter of fact, I've found that the steel frames to be quite stable, and experience far less call backs for sheet rock problems than wood frame homes. In what homes have you seen this problem? How did you determine that the cracking was caused by thermal expansion and contraction and not some other movement in the building? Again, I've not experienced any of these problems in homes that have experienced at a minumum of 4 years worth of the Midwest's extreme hot and cold temperatures.

I would bet the reason that I haven't seen this problem is because the movement you are talking about is very small. Take a look at these numbers. A thermal coefficient of expansion for steel of 6.5 x 10-6 per degree fahrenheit, a piece of steel that is 20' long, and a temperature swing of 50 degrees, yields an elongation or contraction of 3/32". (20ft x 6.5E-6 x 50 degrees x 12in/ft = 0.078") 3/32" in 20ft isn't much. This elongation is approximately 0.0325% of the members original length. If you take a look at the elongation of a wood floor joist member in it's maximum allowable deflected state, it would be my guess that you will see elongation numbers greater than this.

I'm glad you like the idea of ICF's and steel. Sure looks like the best of both worlds to me. There is no doubt that the two systems will work together. The litmus test, as usual, will be pricing.

Let me know if I can answer any additional questions.

...Mark