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  • Bill's sill pan article

    Hey Bill,

    Good article you wrote for the current issue of JLC. Questions:

    1. When windows have been mulled around single 2 x 6 studs, which (if any) of the hybrid or manufactured pan systems can be used to flash around those intermediate studs?

    2. Do you think that your custom-fabricated pans should be leak-tested like DWV pipes?

    3. To avoid liability, I don't think I will ever fabricate my own pans, but there are just too many options to sort through among the manufactured full and hybrid pan systems. Make it easy for me and tell me which systems to favor and which to avoid. My priorities are as follows, starting with the most important:

    a. reliability and durability
    b. chemical compatibility with all types of rigid foam, caulk, membrane and housewrap
    c. PVC-free for environmental reasons
    d. easy to install
    e. inexpensive

  • #2
    Re: Bill's sill pan article

    Thanks,
    1. any of the 3 dimensional flexible self-adhesives would be fine. If the window has a warning about asphalt based I would use butyl. And make sure the system is compatible.
    2. I have done occasional tests on the custom fabricated ones and have complete confidence.
    3. You are making me work on the last one. Except for the PVC-free exclusion I would go for the custom fab ones simply because they are so customizable. Of course you need a brake. I also like the other two shown in the article or I wouldn't have shown them. Then there is the copper from York, it is durable a
    Your last question is for me like saying which way you should have your steak cooked.
    One thing there is no doubt and that is that sillpans are an essential component for good door and window installation.
    Bill R
    www.train2rebuild.com
    Twitter

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    • #3
      Re: Bill's sill pan article

      Bill,
      Help me out a little here and indulge a guy who just does not understand some things about construction.

      First there have been thousands of homes built without every having a sill pan ever put into place. Secondly, I have only recently been hearing about them-say last 5 or so years. Thirdly, how many folks actually use them on a consistant basis. Forth, it seems like another step that adds to cost and time to do a job.

      So, is it a recent invention, a new code issue, something that the makers of the sticky wraps and PVC coil stock makers are pushing or really a necessary item to do. I am not on that many new construction jobsites so cannot really say if they are being used. I can tell you that I have yet to see one used. In fact most of the guys I know are just know getting into using the peel and stick tape for windows and such.

      And as far as a premade one. Is that something that you buy when you order the windows and doors so it is sized to fit or something you buy somewhere else? If they are so needed it would seem that the window and door companies would be selling them to you as part of their package. I thought of that issue when you talked about compatibility of materials. Just had a guy who wanted to install some windows and after reading the installation instructions noticed that his peel and stick would not work since it was asphalt based and needed to be buytl instead.

      How about a little help for the old dog to learn new tricks?

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      • #4
        Re: Bill's sill pan article

        How about a little help for the old dog to learn new tricks?
        Sit. Stay.

        Sill pans have been around for a while. My first exposure was with the GSM, galvanized sheet metal, soldered corners. They worked well but had to be ordered well ahead of time and were pricey.
        A few use them regularly, especially on exterior doors. Think back to some tearouts you have done and picture the framing at the bottom corners of the openings, weren't there signs of water leakage? That could have been prevented with a sill pan.

        Manufacturers are not even supplying the fasteners, sealants and flashings, and only marginally providing the instructions so it is not likely they will provide sill pans.
        Seat belts are a good idea, why did it take so long for car makers to make them standard?
        There are exceptions, Marvin offers a sill pan as an extra and other window manufacturers are including sill pans in the instructions.
        I am in Chicago till Tuesday, come on up.
        Or you can come down to NOLA and visit,and I will make you a believer:) In sill panning and gumbo.
        Things are changin' dog and we must change with the times.
        Bill R
        www.train2rebuild.com
        Twitter

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        • #5
          Re: Bill's sill pan article

          Bill,

          Great article on an important detail.

          We've spec'd sheet metal pans in the past but they can get pricey and slow down the work while they're being custom fabricated.

          I'm intrigued by the manufactured pans because they include a backdam and I'm not ready to invest in the equipemnt to make site-bent pans.

          Does one manufacturer stand out above the rest?

          Thanks!
          Joe Adams
          Deep Creek Builders, Inc.
          Houston, Texas

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Bill's sill pan article

            Originally posted by deepcreek View Post
            Bill,

            Great article on an important detail.

            We've spec'd sheet metal pans in the past but they can get pricey and slow down the work while they're being custom fabricated.

            I'm intrigued by the manufactured pans because they include a backdam and I'm not ready to invest in the equipemnt to make site-bent pans.

            Does one manufacturer stand out above the rest?

            Thanks!
            Joe

            I've used these a few times. They are pretty inexpensive.

            http://www.jamsill.com/pilot.asp

            I use sill and door pans on almost all of my homes. Even for doors where they are clearly covered by porch roofs, we use them so that when HO washes down a porch or exterior water will not enter the house.
            ============================================

            Twitter

            Houzz

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            • #7
              Re: Bill's sill pan article

              Allan,

              Do you buy them direct or elsewhere?

              Thanks for your help.
              Joe Adams
              Deep Creek Builders, Inc.
              Houston, Texas

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Bill's sill pan article

                Originally posted by deepcreek View Post
                Allan,

                Do you buy them direct or elsewhere?

                Thanks for your help.
                Joe

                I haven't used these in a couple of years, I now use a local company to fabricate them out of lead coat copper. The jambsill product is purchased via phone order, you have to measure the framed openings (within 2-3") and call in the order, they ship to you.
                ============================================

                Twitter

                Houzz

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                • #9
                  Re: Bill's sill pan article

                  I also enjoyed the article. Thanks, Bill. Now if I only I had made my RO's big enough to accomodate a sill pan, I'd use them. Marvin's specified RO's sure are tight! Holy cats!
                  No brains, no headaches

                  Jeff

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                  • #10
                    Re: Bill's sill pan article

                    Indeed a great article. Just hope Kreg doesn't nail you for stealing his look.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Bill's sill pan article

                      Beezo:

                      Originally posted by Beezo
                      First there have been thousands of homes built without every having a sill pan ever put into place. Secondly, I have only recently been hearing about them-say last 5 or so years. Thirdly, how many folks actually use them on a consistant basis. Forth, it seems like another step that adds to cost and time to do a job.

                      So, is it a recent invention, a new code issue, .....
                      In the old days walls breathed, water ran in and ran out, the walls dried both in and out. I've torn into stucco homes built before the turn of the 20th century with no paper at all, much less no flashing or sill pans with no damage. Homes were sheathed with redwood boards with horizontal groves cut into them for the stucco to lock, redwood homes had no paper until about 1910 so the water could leak in and out without damage.

                      The problem started with plywood, we started sheathing with plywood instead of boards and started sealing the walls up, so water that got in, stayed in, getting trapped and rotting out the structures, then we started putting insulation into the walls, a material that held the water, rotting out our homes. Now that we are sealing up homes and not allowing our walls to breathe, proper flashing and sill pans are a necessity. So far, energy efficiency in wood frame homes has been a disaster, but the industry is learning, and this learning process is what you are seeing going on. The old Italian carpenters who trained me always said: "The wall gotta breathe" now we installing products to stop air-leakage and depend upon permeability, which may (or may not) work.


                      BTW, I don't use sill pans on some kinds of windows, aluminum or vinyl windows with integral nail fins, with integral fins you can flash and seal the water outside of the waterproof membrane, but many nail fins, like those on wood windows are attached and can leak into the window at the joint of the fin and the frame.

                      When you do use sill pans, be sure to leave the gap between the bottom of the window sill and the sill pan open so the water to drain out of the pan, otherwise you are trapping the water you catch in the pan rotting out the window sill. Around here Loewen leaves the bottom fin off so there is no chance of trapping water in the sill pan, but I've found from these fora that Loewen doesn't do that in all areas. I see in Bills article that he shows no sealant behind the bottom fin and the sill pan, that may (or may not) release the accumulated water, I prefer to leave the bottom fin off altogether, or at least cut two or three inch gaps in the bottom fins to drain the pans. The dumbest thing you can do is install a sill pan, then take a finned window, squirt sealant behind all fins and smash it against the flashing and sill pan, in effect trapping water in the sill pan, sill pans have to drain, that's the whole idea of putting a "pan" under the window.
                      You will ask what goal the U.S. is pursuing? .... their external debt is huge, and ruining other countries is their customary method. Even ownership of the global 'printing press' is no longer helping. Nor is full control over NATO, None of that if enough for the 21st century colonizers. They don't just need to preserve the dollar as the only global currency but also to get their hands on the economic wealth of other large powers and regions. - Sergei Naryshkin

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                      • #12
                        Re: Bill's sill pan article

                        Originally posted by Allan Edwards View Post
                        Joe

                        I've used these a few times. They are pretty inexpensive.

                        http://www.jamsill.com/pilot.asp

                        I use sill and door pans on almost all of my homes. Even for doors where they are clearly covered by porch roofs, we use them so that when HO washes down a porch or exterior water will not enter the house.
                        I agree - call them and they will ship them very quickly. I too use them on every door now and option for windows depending on the scenario.

                        They are slick and well worth the small investment... I think I ordered 20 for 3/0 and 5 for up to 6/0 and the total with shipping was under $300.

                        I though the same thing Dan...

                        Nice write up Bill. I am leaning to get a brake soon to bend my own metal b/c we have a limited supply of pre-made available flashings and no one reliable to ben d metal in 70 miles.
                        Last edited by davenorthup; 08-19-2008, 04:19 AM.
                        “Racism is man's gravest threat to man - the maximum of hatred for a minimum of reason.”
                        Abraham J. Heschel (Jewish theologian and philosopher, 1907-1972)

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                        • #13
                          Re: Bill's sill pan article

                          I think something that is being missed here is the need for drip caps, to me drip caps are a necessity in every building except a stucco building, and if you place wood trim around windows (and doors) they are necessary on stucco buildings.

                          I've always had my tin-man make drip caps and sill pans as part of his job, when I had the window corporation there wasn't always a tin-man on the job, so I would him have make up 1,000 feet at a time (100 pieces) and store them in the warehouse to take up with every job. On a really good installation, which I've only done a few times, the drip caps are folded down on the ends and soldered, that has to be done on the job.
                          You will ask what goal the U.S. is pursuing? .... their external debt is huge, and ruining other countries is their customary method. Even ownership of the global 'printing press' is no longer helping. Nor is full control over NATO, None of that if enough for the 21st century colonizers. They don't just need to preserve the dollar as the only global currency but also to get their hands on the economic wealth of other large powers and regions. - Sergei Naryshkin

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Bill's sill pan article

                            Good article Bill

                            Dave get the brake you won't be sorry

                            I just cut my tapco max into a 4'-1" and a 6'-5" Used a skill saw

                            I will have to post some pics
                            Mark Parlee
                            BESI(building envelope science institute) Envelope Inspector
                            EDI Certified EIFS Inspector/Moisture Analyst/Quality Control/Building Envelope II
                            EDI Seminar Instructor
                            Level one thermographer (Snell)
                            www.thebuildingconsultant.com
                            www.parleebuilders.com
                            You build to code, code is the minimum to pass this test. Congratulations your grade is a D-

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                            • #15
                              Re: Bill's sill pan article

                              I think something that is being missed here is the need for drip caps,
                              Dick, there a lot of things not here, it was an article about sill pans.
                              Bill R
                              FYI building code requires a head flashing above any anything extending proud of the plane of the exterior cladding.
                              www.train2rebuild.com
                              Twitter

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