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  • Replacing masonry veneer

    I've got this reno job coming up. Among other things, it involves applying hard stucco over existing brick and replacing stone banding below the first floor level with a different type of stone. (See designer's drawing below.) Just one question: how do you remove and replace veneer stone without the veneer brick above falling down? The same principle as underpinning a foundation--a bit at a time?
    "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don’t have a f**king clue about how to build anything." Jim Goad

  • #2
    Re: Replacing masonry veneer

    I think a little at a time is about the only option you have. Shoring would be difficult at best. Hopefully the cap is staying as is.

    Tom
    http://chicagocraftsmen.org/2011/06/261.html

    Check with the AHJ, what we say doesn't matter.

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    • #3
      Re: Replacing masonry veneer

      Hi,
      Could you apply the stone over the brick? You would have to detail the interface at the top of the stone, but may be a better way than removing the brick.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Replacing masonry veneer

        stone over the brick

        Interesting idea.

        It would require steel ledges bolted through the foundation, something already planned for the centre bay. Also, it will require some careful detailing where the band wraps around the sides of the home, one side of which includes a walkout.
        "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don’t have a f**king clue about how to build anything." Jim Goad

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        • #5
          Re: Replacing masonry veneer

          Well, if the current veneer is ADHERED veneer, you can just rip it off.

          If it is an ANCHORED veneer and providing bearing for the brick above it, then you have the problem you are imagining.

          You need to investigate a bit more to see what you are working with. Is there a footing under the stone? Is there a line of steel lintels holding up the brick? What is the current interface between stone and brick? What is the new stone to be and how is it to be supported?

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          • #6
            Re: Replacing masonry veneer

            You need to determine the brick veneer is breathing well now. If it isn't, nothing you clad over it will help but will surely make it worse. What kind of drainage plane?
            Are there signs of moisture migration inside?
            If it is lime mortar based, do not parge with any Portand based stucco.
            If the first two haven't talked you out of it, just don't do it--it will fail. Sure, you could attach expanded metal stucco lath then use traditonal 3 hard coat but it will rust out the wire mesh and fail within 10-20 yrs.

            Brick veneer over stone veneer sounds like a recipe for disaster.
            Run!

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            • #7
              Re: Replacing masonry veneer

              Worthy

              post a couple of elevation pictures.
              Mark Parlee
              BESI(building envelope science institute) Envelope Inspector
              EDI Certified EIFS Inspector/Moisture Analyst/Quality Control/Building Envelope II
              EDI Seminar Instructor
              Level one thermographer (Snell)
              www.thebuildingconsultant.com
              www.parleebuilders.com
              You build to code, code is the minimum to pass this test. Congratulations your grade is a D-

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              • #8
                Re: Replacing masonry veneer

                This just seems like a guy with a CAD who knows nothing about building that drew this. My bet is the fnished drawings just have arrows pointing stone here, stucco there and that's it. Stupid idea, stupid job. I would have rolled the plans up and gave them back if the intent is to do what your first post says. Maybe CAD boy could come up with a better idea like change all mortar color on existing brick veneer.

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                • #9
                  Re: Replacing masonry veneer

                  Reexamining the elevation, all the stuff to be removed can be removed from the top down, so there is really no how-to-remove-it issue. Design would look better and be cheaper just to leave the brick, and the stone wainscot alone and do the two bays and the entry in stucco.

                  And that presumes the new entry roof and the pointy gables are what one is after. And, in snow country, the new roofline will give some pinch points.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Replacing masonry veneer

                    My bad - I see in the post that the wainscot is supposed to come off too - no doubt just so the new, taller stone will match. So the tear-off Is a challenge.

                    What a lot of bucks for so little bang.

                    All the more reason to use stucco in the way I suggested above

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                    • #11
                      Re: Replacing masonry veneer

                      All I can say is, "If you sat the arch/designer on an ice cream cone, he could tell you what flavor it is." IMHO that's pretty ugly.
                      Also, the CAD work doesn't help. That's why I stayed with the ole drawing board for residential work.

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                      • #12
                        Re: Replacing masonry veneer

                        Thanks for all the very informed comments! I was feeling some of the same things about the design. This is from an architectural technologist who did a previous new home that worked out perfectly. However, this was done by one of his sons.

                        I built this house in '05 and the owner is my buyer. As soon as the work's done, she wants to sell it and build again larger --this home is 4,200 sf.

                        Yes, the stone below the limestone band is anchored, resting on the brick ledge of the foundation. The concrete brick above rests on the stone and is anchored--for what that's worth. Only Portland mortar used and rainscreen detailing with XPS, brick paper and 1/2-1" of clearance before the masonry.

                        There was a second design that involved stuccoing and pointy gabling--but also included removing all the existing brick and stone and replacing it with natural stone.

                        What a lot of bucks for so little bang.

                        That's what I said too. Why not just list it now and see what you'll get instead of spending up to $100K and living with a mess for 2-3 months. But she seems adamant.
                        "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don’t have a f**king clue about how to build anything." Jim Goad

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Replacing masonry veneer

                          We work with a masonry restoration/waterproofing company who do stuff like this all the time.

                          I was pretty surprised the first time I saw masonry veneer temped up on a handful of 2x4s but I've gotten used to it, we're not even a big client for them and they have done it a lot for us, there must be hundreds of projects around DC where this was done successfully.

                          We've also used a variety of bolted-on or slipped-in steel profiles like angles slid into a joint and welded to more steel to hold it up, or 6x6s bolted to angle or channel profile with little fingers welded on that go under the bricks.

                          You can't beat the simplicity of the 'bunch of 2x4s cut tight' technique though, and it seems to work fine.

                          Good luck if your wacky project goes forward!
                          Doug

                          Favorite tool this week: Leatherman Wave

                          Blog:
                          Three types of gas tank hot water heaters for your renovation
                          Three types of furnace for your renovation
                          Deconstruction: the thrifty, green start to your remodeling project

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                          • #14
                            what is 'successful' or 'works fine'?

                            Not to single anyone out as we all have used similar terms but when we say a technique or product works, how is that defined? Is it a curbside warranty meaning it is warrantied until your tires clear the curb? What about after 5 yrs? 10 yrs? In a case involving exterior cladding, how do you know it 'works'? Did you have infrared thermography done along with sample probing using a moisture meter? What about adhered masonry to green wood versus seasoned wood? Seismic concerns?

                            We tend to speak in terms of it working if the check cleared the bank. That is not the definition of durable housing though.

                            Here in Pa. we have some of the highest concentration of crappy stucco in the country including what Dr. Joe referrs to as "lumpy stucco" otherwise known as stone veneer or "lick 'em & stick 'em". Having worked for a major installer of this product I can assure you there is little to no training or education on how to maintain a drainage plane, how to prepare the base, how to apply--nothing. Get a running start and throw it at the house. As long as it looks good enough to pass the walk through inspection and the first year punch list. Also a good place to remind everyone to know their own State's laws concerning construction defects and 'Right to Repair" laws.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Replacing masonry veneer

                              If this goes ahead--the designer and owner are now at a statemate on invoicing--it will only be with an engineer's specs for any temporary bracing of brick veneer.
                              "The fatal flaw of all revolutionaries is that they know how to tear things down but don’t have a f**king clue about how to build anything." Jim Goad

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