Future of non-IC lights

[cdservices]

Was just wondering if a non-IC light, when fitted with an LED bulb, is cool enough to
be treated like an IC light - ie. can be covered with insulation. The insulation could be Roxul.

I know this would be against code, but would it actually be dangerous?

Thanks

[BeachBoy]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

In new construction you wouldn't put in non-IC fixtures since they are about the same cost as IC fixtures.

IC fixtures have a temperature sensor that will cut of the power if the can gets too hot. Most non-IC fixtures (that I've seen) do not have this sensor (I've seen some that do too).

If the non-IC fixture has an Edison base, you can't be sure that someone isn't going to install a 100 watt (or greater) incandescent. If you go to the trouble of changing out the Edison base for the appropriate connector for an LED, the main problem is that there probably isn't any test data. You'd need to see if your inspector would let you do it and they're probably not going to take the risk. Probably not worth you taking the risk due to the liability. If there were a house fire and they found that, they might go after you, even if it did not cause the fire.

Depending on what fixtures you have, you might be able to change out the guts of the fixture to the original frame (3 sheetmetal screws for some Halos.)

[David Meiland]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

There is NO WAY, as a contractor, that you should endorse the use of a non-IC can covered with insulation. In some cases you can retrofit a pin base into an existing can, in other cases you can change out the can itself with a retrofit kit. Those are the two professional contractor moves, anything else is a rookie move.

[cdservices]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

I know insulation contact on non-IC is a rookie move.
My question went to dangerousness, ie. my house, or a family move.
If retrofitted with an LED bulb, is there no longer danger of overheating?

[MarkMc]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

It may be reduced in general, but it would not be eliminated unless you have some foolproof way to prevent a regression to incandescent.

[DWBuilder]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

IMO, an analogy would be changing the blade on a circular saw without unplugging it. Sure, you tell yourself not to touch the switch and probably get away with it. But why would you do that when the upside is so slight and the downside so severe?

[BeachBoy]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

Several manufacturers make covers for non-ic recessed cans. Here is one:

http://www.tenmat-us.com/thermal-pro...topcovers.html

There is another manufacturer that makes a square version in paperboard or metal.

An advantage of these is that they also air seal around the lights.

Alternately, if your recessed lights are a common model and still made, you may be able to buy the same model in the ICAT version and swap out just the enclosure and the whip. There are just three screws that hold it into the frame. See what you have, see if you can find the equivalent ICAT and see if they are close enough to change out. You'll just be reusing the frame and the junction box part.

[Roger P]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

Alternately, if your recessed lights are a common model and still made, you may be able to buy the same model in the ICAT version and swap out just the enclosure and the whip. There are just three screws that hold it into the frame. See what you have, see if you can find the equivalent ICAT and see if they are close enough to change out. You'll just be reusing the frame and the junction box part.

and void the UL listing!

[Hearthman]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

It is a fallacy that all LEDs run cool. There are many that run too hot for 'can' luminaires so check with the mfr. to see if its approved.

No matter how you cover a non-IC can, it becomes a fire hazard-period. It must breathe to cool off.

The code requires ICATS where it penetrates the attic/ ceiling. You can use non-IC's in lower floors but as stated with the costs so cheap, just use ICATS and live.

Some dope at the ICC put a drawing in the 2006 IRC code commentary showing you how to box in over a non-IC. Wrong! the 3" clearance was to the sides but the top must remain completely open to breathe.

[johnny watt]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

I don't know how anyone would know for sure if it was safe, unless they insulated a fixture, installed an LED lamp and measured the temperature inside the fixture. You could do that yourself.

I would be willing to bet a million dollars that it would be safe, as LED's use about one tenth the power that incandescents do and the savings in power is mostly, if not all, in the form of heat output.

[BeachBoy]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

With regard to the covers, from their web site:

"The FF130E has been tested in accordance with UL1598 for usage with IC and Non-IC rated recessed lights (See Installation Instructions for maximum lamp wattage and types)."

The installation instructions specify for use with 13W, 18W, 26W, 32W, or 42W CFLs, or 65W BR30 or 90W PAR38 and specifically state not to use with incandescent bulbs.
Of course there is no way to prevent anyone from reinstalling a incandescent.

You'll have to decide for yourself exactly what all that means for your application.

[charles]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

I would be willing to bet a million dollars that it would be safe, as LED's use about one tenth the power that incandescents do and the savings in power is mostly, if not all, in the form of heat output.

I used to think that until someone in the auto industry told me about the effort they make to keep headlamp LED's cool, with cooling fins and such. There are lots of LED's out there that are less efficient than CFL's.

[BeachBoy]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

I used to think that until someone in the auto industry told me about the effort they make to keep headlamp LED's cool, with cooling fins and such. There are lots of LED's out there that are less efficient than CFL's.

Have any examples?

[charles]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

Have any examples?

Try your local Wal Mart.

[BeachBoy]

Re: Future of non-IC lights

Got an example? It would be hard to make an LED that is less efficient than a CFL. Possible I suppose...