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Gary Katz
11-29-2011, 03:04 PM
A friend of mine (wishes to remain anonymous!) sent me these pictures yesterday. They're pretty self explanatory.

He was ripping a thin piece of panel molding on his table saw.

His router was sitting on the workbench right behind him.

Enough said.
Gary

Gary Katz
11-29-2011, 03:05 PM
Here's some closer shots...

I'll let you know if Festool covers this under the warranty. :)
Gary

Bob Kovacs
11-29-2011, 03:08 PM
Well, the pics can't be from Kreg- the tablesaw wasn't set up in the grass.....lol

Based on what the piece did to that router, imagine what it could have done if he was standing in the line of fire. Can you say "perforated bowel"???

dave_k
11-29-2011, 03:34 PM
I guy I used to work with, a concrete foreman, was recovering from a heart attack so they put him on light duty building forms in the yard. He was, alone, ripping cant out of 4/4 on a BIG old 14" table saw when it kicked back and fired a spear of wood (actually a 4x4) that impaled him through the lower gut and out his back. It just missed his spine but messed up the nerves to his legs and intestinal tract in a very serious way say nothing of making a mess of his innards. That was the last day of his working life. He was a tough guy, known for never missing a day of work for any reason. He even came while having his heart attack and had to be sent home. His wife called the ambulance.

tjbnwi
11-29-2011, 03:42 PM
I have seen one through a finished wall, it got both sides. One into the hollow of a CMU, it did not make it all the way through.

Is the router still under warranty?

Tom

timraleigh
11-29-2011, 03:46 PM
Holy crap! That looks nasty. I hope that 1010 recovers.
I notice there is no riving knife on that saw, could that be the issue?
I was recently cutting stock that resulted in a narrow piece of stock being left between the fence and the blade. I expected kick back but I think because of the riving knife I didn't experience any.
Tim

Ottoman
11-29-2011, 04:55 PM
Anyone who owns a shop TS should by a stock feeder. And another TS to set up exclusivesly with the stock feeder. I've seen seen those kick backs 200' and thru a cinder block wall. It only takes once.

bjackson3
11-29-2011, 05:28 PM
My garage shop is about 20 feet deep, tablesaw is centered. Had a piece kickback, bounce off of the back wall and go through through the garage door in front of the saw. That woke me up.

kreg McMahon
11-29-2011, 05:35 PM
Dave K... did I understand you correctly that it was a 4"x4" that shot through him? if so that is unbelievable that size...


yep kick back is very dangerous that is why when on job site you have to keep your eyes open for what is behind you at all times..

TIM

I do not think a riving knife will keep a piece from being shot back, in fact it really does not it keeps the saw from binding by pinching... is the main purpose... if I am incorrect let me know

the plastic piece that comes with the saw that we all remove is the main piece that has teeth to stop pieces from being shot back usually

dave_k
11-29-2011, 05:53 PM
Dave K... did I understand you correctly that it was a 4"x4" that shot through him? if so that is unbelievable that size...


On the force of the kick back the 4x4 was broken into a spear point with a pointy bit at one end and a 4x4 bit at the back. I didn't witness this but I heard about it from the guys in the yard and read the investigation report on it.

Tom Bainbridge
11-29-2011, 06:24 PM
if you have never had a riving knife on a saw bench

work on the basis a riving knife on a saw makes it FAR FAR safer than one without

im not claiming "no risk", just a massive risk reduction on one that doesnt

edit this is a personal viewpoint

Gary Katz
11-29-2011, 06:34 PM
Tom,
You are correct. The riving knife helps prevent the kerf from closing on the workpiece at the back of the saw. It also helps prevent either piece from pressing against the back teeth on the blade--it is that contact with the back teeth on the blade that causes kick back.
Gary

philthegreek
11-29-2011, 07:19 PM
Well, the pics can't be from Kreg- the tablesaw wasn't set up in the grass.....lol

Based on what the piece did to that router, imagine what it could have done if he was standing in the line of fire. Can you say "perforated bowel"???

Nah, skewered shish ka balls.

That must have been a vampire festool. ;-)

Phil

dgbldr
11-29-2011, 07:31 PM
Rule I learned a long time ago: Never place your body directly in line with a saw blade. Not on a TS, not on a RAS, not even on a sidewinder.

It takes a little discipline, but it's not that hard to stand just a bit offset from the plane of the blade.

GaryJR
11-29-2011, 07:35 PM
Rule I learned a long time ago: Never place your body directly in line with a saw blade. Not on a TS, not on a RAS, not even on a sidewinder.

It takes a little discipline, but it's not that hard to stand just a bit offset from the plane of the blade.


So very true dg, if you ever saw the factories that where set up during WWII with rows of laths. All the machines are offset to protect the worker behind

I have a hole in the shop wall from the very same incident that I never fixed. the sound it made when it hit is what scared me. Like an arrow from a crossbow.

Keith Mathewson
11-29-2011, 07:50 PM
I'm wondering how this happened. There is a push stick right there on the tablesaw.

Tim Uhler
11-29-2011, 08:40 PM
It looks like Gary's shot ;-)

DamonD
11-29-2011, 10:21 PM
Never forgot years ago when a shop I ran was next to a donut shop (not a joke and no it wasnt good), running small moulding just like the pics with a power feeder setup and lost a piece at a knot launched back and was I scared when I only saw about 3' of a 6'pc sticking out of the wall, walked next door to see the gal flipping donuts in the fryer staring at the trim sticking through the wall just missed the big floor mixer pot...
that was 4 layers of 5/8 gyp! added plywood after that.

At least he was using the Windsor One push stick :)

raditrimmer2
11-29-2011, 10:32 PM
You guys have any experience with Shaper kick back? Very serious and whole different set of parameters. Things just seem to happen faster and in a more explosive manner.

archmolding
11-29-2011, 10:56 PM
I too wonder how this could happen if he was using the push stick properly. I can tell that the piece ripped was narrower than the push stick. He probably didn't want to mark up his nice push stick, and used it on the wrong side if the board? That will always cause kick back like that.

JoshAndrews
11-29-2011, 11:20 PM
My brother (who should know better) had a piece kick back on him and go straight into a window on a cusomter's house. Obviously the table saw shouldn't have been set up in direct line with the window. $500 sash replacement...

Lavrans
11-30-2011, 12:06 AM
I too wonder how this could happen if he was using the push stick properly. I can tell that the piece ripped was narrower than the push stick. He probably didn't want to mark up his nice push stick, and used it on the wrong side if the board? That will always cause kick back like that.

Oh, even with a push stick it can happen. Shouldn't, but can. It's less the stick than the fence most of the time, or the piece having a lot of built-in stress and bending too much at just the right time, it catches and gets thrown up.

I like to cut long miters with the blade buried into a sacrificial fence. It's great, unless you don't have the sacrificial fence high enough and the off-cut can get trapped. Ask Tim about that :)

clydewater
11-30-2011, 08:57 AM
When I was 16 or so I was using my Dad's 14 RAS - the old style DeWalt that the Lumber yards have, to rip some 2x6 lumber in the basement. As I had not used the saw in a while I fed the piece in the wrong end. The blade grabbed the wood and launched it down towards the stairs. At the same moment my 5 year old brother was coming down the stairs. Fortunately there was something in the way that deflected the wood before it hit him in the head. To say the least I was scared Sh- -Less that I almost killed my little brother. That was my wake up call to use the safety eq.

But I did not learn well enough as I had the guard removed from the table saw and 43 years of table saw use was not enough from cutting my finger. My own stupidity by not staying focused on what I was doing.

Now I use the guards, riving knife and kick back paws whenever possible. SawStop is not in the budgets
Be safe
Rich

Gary Katz
11-30-2011, 10:55 AM
I've had pieces kick back and I use a push stick every time, so don't think it's can't happen when you use a push stick. ALWAYS stand to the side when ripping material on a table saw! A push stick has a very small notch at the back and it's very very easy for a sliver of molding to kick back and slip under that notch...very easy. Trust me on that one. I shot a piece right through the door of a brand new Nissan King Cab that was parked in front of my shop with the doors open and the radio on. Yes. It was my truck. And I was using a push stick....
But no, that's not my shop or my 1010 router. :)
Gary

ycf dino
11-30-2011, 02:20 PM
almost killed my son using a RAS.
call Sears to " talk" about the faulty design and not enough warnings...
only to find out later that the cool tool was the # 1 amputation device in US.

Now the TS is # 1 only because the liability of the RAS is greater than profits...
for some companies.

I don't like to use push sticks or stay on the side.
less control and very bad idea. ( the push stick)

The Grrriper on the other hand is a very well designed tool.
Same with magnetic feather boards ( easy to adjust and use)
But even with 100 safety devices there is times where you simply can't use them.
Best way out is Not to use faulty designed tools and confuse luck with ability.

I was very lucky over the years not to have one scratch from any power tool.
Same with all my guys over the years.

take it easy and be ready. you never know how the wood is going to react.
pro's with over 30 years behind TS's lost hands and fingers because of the routine.
you cut 1000 pieces one after another without any problem and some how
one piece of wood decides to react in a bad way.

Remember that wood is ALIVE and internal energy gets released every time you cut.
A mix grain wood, a flat grain, not properly dried. wet, chemical treated etc... etc...

I was pushing piece of wood on the TS and some how there was not any resistance
from the blade? later I found out that there was a void inside the wood.
In one of my bad videos ( I will post a link if I can find it) the same again
but this time I was using a portable beam saw setup. :)
No problems.

ycf dino
eurekazone

Cornerstone Tim
11-30-2011, 04:58 PM
99% of the time kick back is caused by operator error. Too much pressure on the work piece on the opposite of the blade from the fence....fence that is out of alignment .....or trying to rip something small by pushing it through from the wrong side.

EVERY SINGLE TIME that I have had a piece kick back on me it was MY FAULT.

I turned 51 this year, and my dad started teaching me how to properly use a TS at the wee age of five. It amazes me that there are "carpenters" out there with 20 plus years of "experience" who know absolutely nothing about TS safety.

By the looks of those pictures, I would be led to believe that he was pushing the piece through from the wrong side. ALWAYS!!! ALWAYS!!! WORK WITH YOUR PIECE BETWEEN THE FENCE AND THE BLADE!! I have NEVER seen kick back come from the other side.

I warned a "Journeyman" carpenter on a job once about how he was using the TS. Of course, he took it the wrong way, and told me to "shut the F&%$ UP, and mind your own business!"
I no longer moved my business out of the range of his, when WHAM!!! He shot a piece of quarter round he was ripping down right through a solid pine door. I didn't say a word.

Lavrans
12-01-2011, 12:18 AM
By the looks of those pictures, I would be led to believe that he was pushing the piece through from the wrong side. ALWAYS!!! ALWAYS!!! WORK WITH YOUR PIECE BETWEEN THE FENCE AND THE BLADE!! I have NEVER seen kick back come from the other side.

Sorry, Tim... But I'm totally confused by this paragraph...

If you're freehanding and aren't using a fence, there is little to no chance of kick-back. Kickback is almost always from a piece getting trapped between the fence and the blade- it's the pressure against the blade that allows the transfer of energy.

I think what you're saying is to be pushing the part of the piece that is against the fence- right?

Cornerstone Tim
12-01-2011, 06:43 AM
Sorry, Tim... But I'm totally confused by this paragraph...

If you're freehanding and aren't using a fence, there is little to no chance of kick-back. Kickback is almost always from a piece getting trapped between the fence and the blade- it's the pressure against the blade that allows the transfer of energy.

I think what you're saying is to be pushing the part of the piece that is against the fence- right?

Absolutely.

Sorry, when I talk about "outside" I am talking about the opposite side of the blade from the fence.
Yes there are times when the fence might be moved to the left side of the blade, so saying "left" doesn't always work.

You can get kick back also when using a miter gauge also if your piece is not firm against the gauge. But most of the time it is caused by applying too much pressure outside of the blade.

Kgphoto
12-02-2011, 03:11 PM
I second the use of the magnetic feather boards. Very quick and easy to set up and hold like the dickens.

Also, zero clearance inserts and sleds over miter gauges and stop blocks to keep clearance off the fence. A good push stick, well aligned blade and fence and stand to one side, always.

ycf dino
12-02-2011, 08:42 PM
I second the use of the magnetic feather boards. Very quick and easy to set up and hold like the dickens.

Also, zero clearance inserts and sleds over miter gauges and stop blocks to keep clearance off the fence. A good push stick, well aligned blade and fence and stand to one side, always.

and stand to one side???

I think the advice to stand to one side is bad.
Like driving a car from the passenger side?

You can't apply the right pressure and reach for the wood from the side.
Don't be afraid of the monster but be prepared for 100 things that can go wrong

dixonpeer
12-03-2011, 10:16 AM
You guys have any experience with Shaper kick back? Very serious and whole different set of parameters. Things just seem to happen faster and in a more explosive manner.

Yes. I have a 10hp Sueri Alfredo shaper that I have used for all kinds of molded pieces. When shaping curved muntins for custom windows I've experienced kick back. There's really no way I know of to shape these curved bars other than mounting the stock on a pattern, setting up a hold down and going at it. But of course, as one runs the curve, different grain patterns come in contact with the knives and occasionally a piece "blows up". I've laminated pieces to try and avoid this, but even they blow up sometimes. I actually took to wearing a glove on my "push" hand so as to protect it from the flying pieces.

I never had any problem with larger curves. I've run lots of 4 and 5 inch crowns and such without any trouble.

Tom Bainbridge
12-03-2011, 06:38 PM
similar but almost unrelated to offset lathes

i used to ride bikes (motorbikes) and had / saw accidents

i always drive "offset" from any bike on the road, luckily like i used to do, the "pros" still ride faster than the prevailling traffic speed for safety

Tom Bainbridge
12-03-2011, 06:50 PM
kick back is nasty, serious, dangerous business

like said above NEVER EVER stand behind ANY linear machining operation

saw bench, planer, thicknesser, router table etc

gary robertson
12-04-2011, 03:42 PM
i lost my left kidney the same way on a table saw

ycf dino
12-04-2011, 08:24 PM
maybe a special "kickback shield" to keep the pieces inline?

the majority of kickbacks are inline with the cutting tool
but some times you can't predict the path?

maybe I'm wrong but I just can't see myself working from the side.
that may cause the kickback that we try to avoid.

not the first time that I'm wrong...

Bob scott
12-05-2011, 05:01 PM
maybe a special "kickback shield" to keep the pieces inline?

the majority of kickbacks are inline with the cutting tool
but some times you can't predict the path?

maybe I'm wrong but I just can't see myself working from the side.
that may cause the kickback that we try to avoid.

not the first time that I'm wrong...

You're definitly wrong.
Have you ever ripped a board on a table saw?
Anything 8' to 18'? I'm sure you weren't standing at the back of a 16 foot long board trying to push it through a tablesaw blade from 16 feet away!

No wonder you think table saws are unsafe!

Bob

ycf dino
12-05-2011, 07:09 PM
I use ts for many years. from the smallest to 100 HP gang ripsaws with 20 blades.
the smallest one is the most dangerous? not enough material support.

If you cut long boards is natural to stay at the side.
if you cut panels you can't hide.

to stay at the side is ok if the boards are long and heavy.
you have to apply some pressure against the fence and your body position
is at the side and at the right place for the task.
how about small pieces? you try to feed them from the side?

how far apart from the dangerous zone and how we know where the wood is heading?
best thing is to find better ways or to learn better ways to use it.
more like a machinist.
secure and cut.

-------------------------------------------------------
never be afraid of any tool.
the ts demands total perfection in many fields.
knowledge of woods and blades.
you can't cut flat grain pine and go to R&Q maple or white oak with the same pace.
thin blades on mix grain woods are a big NO.
blade can follow the grain resulting in binding and kickbacks.

this is only one scenario. one of 100's that you can have a nasty kickback.
when you think that you know everything, it only takes one hidden void inside the wood to remove few fingers or a hidden nut to create a nasty kickback. 3 so far.
best thing to do is to make a list.

a nice lady walking across the street can result in an accident when we push wood to spinning blades. working like a machinist make sense to me and in time the tsaws are going the same route like the radial arm saws and soon to follow the smcs.

Respect for the tool and understanding that you can't always be perfect in order to keep your body parts makes you re-think the way you work.
I was lucky not to have an accident but I wasn't afraid of any TS.
------------------------------------------------------

SteveC
12-05-2011, 08:25 PM
You do not stand "at the side of the saw", you stand "off to the side" of the possible path of the piece.

jobercian
12-06-2011, 07:32 AM
I stand on top of the saw

SteveC
12-06-2011, 08:04 AM
I stand on top of the saw

Does the SawStop work if it contacts your boot or is it when it hits your toe ?

Kgphoto
12-06-2011, 03:45 PM
and stand to one side???

I think the advice to stand to one side is bad.
Like driving a car from the passenger side?

You can't apply the right pressure and reach for the wood from the side.
Don't be afraid of the monster but be prepared for 100 things that can go wrong

I guess I was not clear. Stand to one side, means don't stand directly in the path of the blade/kickback when cutting small (narrow) pieces. There. That should handle it.

ycf dino
12-06-2011, 07:04 PM
OK. That is sound and clear advice.
tx

Jeremy
12-06-2011, 07:43 PM
Does the SawStop work if it contacts your boot or is it when it hits your toe ?


Only if your boot has the moisture content of a hot dog.

slimpickens
12-07-2011, 10:16 PM
I stand on top of the saw

THAT'S funny.

Kgphoto
12-07-2011, 10:16 PM
Thank God for sweaty feet !