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pk94100
10-24-2009, 02:51 PM
I am trying to get ready for the April 2010 EPA Lead Renovation rules that require a HEPA vac for cleanup. I took the Certified Lead Renovators course and now I'm looking for a small HEPA vacuum. I do small jobs so 5gal (or smaller ) is all I need. Since the EPA rules that define a HEPA vac says...The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it.... I guess I need a HEPA vacuum as opposed to a "standard" vacuum with a HEPA filter.

Since true HEPA vacs tend to be costly I was wondering if anyone has any experience with small HEPA vacuums and can make recommendations.

Thanks
pk

always-learning
10-24-2009, 08:42 PM
I bought it, to comply with next years regs, I couldn't believe how much it was. It is extremely quiet (quietest vac I've ever heard) and extremely well made (materials) , although it doesn't pick up water or wet materials. It's only use is for dry pickup.

The exit air is filtered 3 times. Once through the bag inside, then the filter, then the secondary motor filter, so nothing is passed out the other side of the unit. Keeps dust inside the bag / vac where it belongs. Works great (suction) and exceeds HEPA requirements (cleans 99.99954% of dust particles up to 0.3 microns ),

Has a 33' long cord, so you won't need any extensions with it. Has disposable bags inside, which makes cleanup quite easy. Small diameter hose and wands, so it's primarily for dust and fine particles, and not for big clumps of waste, which need to be disposed of by hand. Great for cleaning up the lead based paint dust and chips which is why I bought it, but it's compact size makes it easy to store in my truck, along with the other standard vacs.




http://www.nobles.com/nobles-en/products/tidy-vac-vacuums.aspx





One thing I hate about it...... no on board tool storage.... You would think that when I spent that much on a freaking vacuum, that I would have been able to put the attachments somewhere....

I guess the Germans didn't think of everything when they made it.



Oh, yeah..... $500

dgbldr
10-25-2009, 02:01 PM
Is it not the same as this?

http://www.parish-supply.com/canister_vacuum.htm

Shawn Prentice
10-25-2009, 02:18 PM
So, are the pricy Fein and Festool vacs with a HEPA filter considered "standard?" I have a Fein and dread the thought of having to spend another heap of cash on a vacuum.

S.Joisey
10-25-2009, 03:12 PM
The good people at McFeely's tell me the Fein Turbo 2 is OK for lead abatement if you use their bag which keeps everything contained.

I get the impression the other Feins don't pass any dust through either. But without the special bag, getting the dust out of the vac could release lead.

Shawn Prentice
10-25-2009, 04:06 PM
As I understand it, the Fein turbo designation is for the size of the vacuum, is that right? What would make the Turbo I, what I have, different from the Turbo II in its filtering capabilities?

hdrider_chgo
10-25-2009, 05:21 PM
Can someone supply a link to more about the new rule and how I might find a compliance class? I was not aware of this.

VTNorm
10-25-2009, 05:35 PM
http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovation.htm

-Norm

S.Joisey
10-25-2009, 08:07 PM
Can someone supply a link to more about the new rule and how I might find a compliance class? I was not aware of this.

There's another thread specifically about the new lead rules - you might want to look for it.

From what I can gather , the EPA isn't going to start offering the classes until the new year (at least here in NJ). There are private firms that offer them, but at a greater price than the govmnt sponsored ones.

Shawn Prentice
10-25-2009, 08:43 PM
I recently signed up here through a private firm for $175 for the 1-day class taking place in about 3 weeks...trying to beat the rush. I've attached some guidlines I found which outlines the rules better than anything I've found so far. I also sent an email to Fein to see if the Turbo I qualifies and I'll let you know of the results. It does say in the instructions that with a HEPA filter you can clean-up lead and asbestos. And, there is a warning not to vacuum hazardous/carcinogenic dust unless the optional HEPA filter is installed. So one would assume it would qualify, but we'll see.

always-learning
10-25-2009, 08:50 PM
Is it not the same as this?

http://www.parish-supply.com/canister_vacuum.htm

Same one. Doesn't say how much, but it's identical (and also called tidy vac) as the one I purchased.



There's another thread specifically about the new lead rules - you might want to look for it.

From what I can gather , the EPA isn't going to start offering the classes until the new year (at least here in NJ). There are private firms that offer them, but at a greater price than the govmnt sponsored ones.

Joisey,

I took the class for free. NJ is paying corporations to set up these classes at no charge to you or the average homeowner who wants to become more aware of the hazards.

Hell, they even sprung for a free lunch.....

frenchie
10-25-2009, 09:14 PM
Can someone supply a link to more about the new rule and how I might find a compliance class? I was not aware of this.

There's another thread specifically about the new lead rules - you might want to look for it.


http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49002


I took the class for free. NJ is paying corporations to set up these classes at no charge to you or the average homeowner who wants to become more aware of the hazards.

Hell, they even sprung for a free lunch.....

Details? 175$ saving is 175$ towards the vac...

I have to go to NJ for this anyways, I think. Couldn't find anyone offering the course in downstate NY... Which seems sorta weird, considering the average house in NYC is way older than 1978. Anyways, NJ's a lot closer than Albany.

dgbldr
10-25-2009, 09:19 PM
So, are the pricy Fein and Festool vacs with a HEPA filter considered "standard?" I have a Fein and dread the thought of having to spend another heap of cash on a vacuum.

I'm not familiar with the Fein, but this is very simple. The vac is either certified HEPA compliant by its manufacturer or it's not. Filter is only part of it. The whole machine needs to pass the test, i.e. not leak dust out the tailpipe.

So you need to ask Fein which is and which isn't certified.

always-learning
10-25-2009, 09:21 PM
http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49002



Details? 175$ saving is 175$ towards the vac...

I have to go to NJ for this anyways, I think. Couldn't find anyone offering the course in downstate NY... Which seems sorta weird, considering the average house in NYC is way older than 1978. Anyways, NJ's a lot closer than Albany.

What?

Mr. Googlishious couldn't find it ?

;-)

Anything for you mr. Frenchie....or should I call you Smokie?


Here's the schedule... although now they charge $35. When I went, it was free.....


I guess I finally did something right...by taking the class early this year.

http://www.state.nj.us/dca/dcr/leadsafe/events.html#free

frenchie
10-25-2009, 10:36 PM
Um... I don't see anything there that says this is an EPA-certified RRP course. Covers the State rules, but are you sure it certifies you you for the Fed rules? Rutgers isn't on the EPA's list of accredited training programs:

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/trainingproviders.htm#nj

But that doesn't mean much - Rutgers might be using one of Lew Corp or NAETI's instructors, in which case it might be certified...

??

They make this stuff so confusing.

Shawn Prentice
10-26-2009, 10:56 AM
Fein emailed me back and I would imagine this applies to all of their Turbo vacs as well:

I asked if the Turbo I vacuum with a HEPA filter meets
the EPA RRP guidelines and was told:

"FEIN has not done any testing to this extent,
So I would have to say that they do not."

pk94100
10-26-2009, 04:41 PM
I just got an email from Fein that said the vacuums are certified for lead dust ( ... at least the filter is so does that make the vacuum certified?) Here is what they said....
.........................
Yes, our HEPA filters are certified to use for lead removal. The HEPA filter will fit on any one of our Fein Vacuums.

If you have any other questions, you can contact me here at Fein. My phone extension is 231.
Thank you,
Larry

Larry Whitaker
FEIN Power Tools, Inc.
1030 Alcon Street Pittsburgh , Pennsylvania 15220
(P) 412-922-8886
(F) 412-922-8767
(TF) 800-441-9878

Cornerstone Tim
10-26-2009, 04:42 PM
Thanks for posting this. I am making the day of it, and getting this taken care of sooner than latter.

drewsledz
10-26-2009, 05:30 PM
I hope Festool vacs are okay...I don't need another $500 vac.

always-learning
10-26-2009, 05:51 PM
Um... I don't see anything there that says this is an EPA-certified RRP course. Covers the State rules, but are you sure it certifies you you for the Fed rules?
??

They make this stuff so confusing.


When I took the course for "lead safe building maintenance" as required in N.J.A.C. 5:10 6.6(g) 1 & 2, the instructor told us that this course would qualify us as being "certified" in the lead safe building maintenance course. Since, at the time of the class, the "powers that be" in the state didn't know exactly how the regulations would apply to those certified by this class, the assumed that we would be grandfathered into whatever was finally decided on the certification requirements that were finally adopted by the state of NJ.

Since the class was free, and I received my certificate at the end of the day, I didn't press the issue any, although I did ask why the fed wasn't directing this class. THey said that since NJ has it's own "DEP" that NJ had the ability to create their own certification which would cover the feds proposed rules that were still being developed.

I'll completely agree with you that they make this so confusing. I do know that I have the cert, and I'm allowed to use it to do "hired" final inspections / wipe testing on fed lead removal jobs of other contractors. That story is a whole lot of bologna, because the process has you clean the surface you're testing, prior to swabbing the area & sending out the samples.

Absolutely asinine.

Bill Robinson
10-26-2009, 07:32 PM
Much of this RRP rule is confusing and changing.
Recent litigation (http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/hanleywood/rm_200910/#/20) has changed some of the procedures.

As I understand it a vac with a HEPA filter will be acceptable for dust extraction for power tools.
However for clean up it looks like a HEPA vac will be required.
As far as I know most of the dust collection vacs in use now are not HEPA vacs but vacs with HEPA filters.

The federal law applies unless your state has adopted one more stringent.

You need to check with your local requirements to confirm.

Bill R

S.Joisey
10-26-2009, 08:13 PM
Looks like I'll put off my vac purchase "till the dust clears" and I am sure which vacs qualify.

I've spent hours on the phone with Rutgers and the state EPA trying to find RRP courses. No one knew much of anything. Chuck, I think you gave me more info than anyone.

BGeezus
10-26-2009, 09:28 PM
Can someone clarify a few things,if possible?

Are these new regs intended to protect workmen,occupants or both?

Since the property owner is also the owner of the lead,do they hold the lead responsibility for the handling and removal of it? How are these materials to be handled and disposed of and what type of documentation is required?

Shawn Prentice
10-26-2009, 10:06 PM
Can someone clarify a few things,if possible?

Are these new regs intended to protect workmen,occupants or both?

It will protect both. If it was established in favor of one or the other, I can't say.


Since the property owner is also the owner of the lead,do they hold the lead responsibility for the handling and removal of it?

Only if they are removing it themselves. If you are hired to do the work, then it's your responsibility. You need to charge for the extra work. I suppose you could consider the extra fee the HO pays as their "responsibility."



How are these materials to be handled and disposed of and what type of documentation is required?

That's why you take the class, to learn about the containment steps and to get a certificate of completion.

frenchie
10-26-2009, 10:15 PM
From what I've read at the EPA site... It's mostly about protecting the occupants, and future occupants. I'd go further, it looks like it's mainly about protecting occupants under 6 years of age.

This isn't about abatement (removal & disposal) - it's just about not spreading it around when you're knocking down walls, sanding, etc. They noticed that renovation work tends to make dust (duh), and if some of that dust contains lead, renovation leads to higher blood-levels of lead. The basic idea is to contain the dust.

always-learning
10-26-2009, 10:37 PM
And here how it's even trickier....
...

I asked " What happens if you go to a persons house where they ask you to do work, and it's something simple, such as changing a door, or replacing a window and disturbing > 2 square feet of "possible lead based paint surface". Turns out that their house falls into the "lead home" category, and they have a young child in the house that's under the age of 6. You supply the homeowner with the "renovation guide" and get the mandatory signature for the receipt of the pamphlet. You start the job.

You were in the house, just a day, and you performed the "lead safe practices" guidelines that you're required to. Turns out that the kid gets sick. Lead poisoning from previous contractors, and the homeowner DIY'r himself who previously exposed the child to the lead dust by not containing their work, either through use of a HEPA or proper separation / containment / disposal methods. Everyone gets sued, including you.

You have your documentation providing proof of receipt of the mandatory pamphlet, which is what prompted the mother to do the extra legwork of finding out why their child was sick. You know that you used the safe practice methods, but find yourself behind the 8 ball hiring a lawyer to defend you, because your insurance (such as mine) refused to defend you against the claim because of their "exclusions" in their policy. All out of pocket." At least you made the effort to "contain" your own work.....

His reply was to first inspect the house for peeling paint, especially on windows, and make notations or take photographs of the areas in question. Next step was to take wipe samples, just as we were shown how to do in the seminar, and send those out to the lab you purchased the kits from. Wait for the results, and if the wipes come back clean then you could proceed to do the work in their home. Since the wipes can take several days to come back, you would have to postpone any work on the house until you had the results in your hands.

Unfortunately, it seems as though we'd never get any work done if we followed all of the rules. He agreed that it would put a damper on timing the repair work, if needed to be done in a hurry....but then again, no one can start a job immediately, unless they have nothing better to do anyway, right ?





BTW, has anyone seen the lawyer advertisements on EVERY TV STATION telling people that their kid being sick may be from lead poisoning ? You could get the "MONEY YOU DESERVE"

S.Joisey
10-27-2009, 08:01 AM
What is the cost of a lead test - wipe surfaces, and send it off for testing?

always-learning
10-27-2009, 09:24 AM
S.

I don't know the costs, because I still haven't worked in any homes where it was necessary to do the wipe testing, nor have I done any of the certification / testing for other contractors final inspections. Never really put much thought into it because of the lack of interest in doing any of the testing. Once you take the class and see just how ridiculous the testing process really is, you'll understand what I mean.

I posted the listings for all of the certified companies in NJ that provide the testing and wipes. You could call whatever one is closest to you and they can provide you what you need to do the testing

Each state has their own labs, but I'm positive that you could purchase the wipes through any lab in the country. The issue is the time frame from your test wipe to the time of the results in your hands. If the results take a week or two, you'll delay your work for that time period.

EMSL Analytical Inc
Westmont, NJ
800 220 3675

Enviro-Probe Inc
Edison, NJ
732-494-4600

International Asbestos Testing Lab
Mt. Laurel
856-231-9449

Public Health Labs
Paterson, NJ
973 321 1277


If you start doing this, please post the costs here for everyone to view...

Shawn Prentice
10-27-2009, 03:38 PM
Pk-the person who emailed me back was not the same one who answered you. So, I emailed them again today with a more specifics and here is the result:

I added this:

Last evening, I found on a contractors website I frequent that another member had contacted Fein and he was told the HEPA filter is certified for lead removal. Although, I don't think he asked about the complete unit with the HEPA filter. Here is an excerpt from
the EPA lead guidelines on what they consider a HEPA vacuum. I think the
most important part of the paragraph is the last sentence since almost every
vacuum has a HEPA filter option, but not all can say that no air leaks past
it. I don't know if this changes anything or helps clarify my original
question, but I wanted to double check. Thanks again.

"HEPA vacuum" means a vacuum cleaner which has been designed with a
high-efficiency particulate (HEPA) filter as the
last filtration stage. A HEPA filter is a filter that is capable of
capturing particles of 0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency.
The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the
machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with
none of the air leaking past it.

Fein wrote back with this:

Based on that description, our unit is sealed, but like you said, does
any air leak out around the filter...I don't know.
I think it is better to give a negative answer, then have someone use
the vac for hazardous material removal, and get a fine for it not being
approved.

All that being said, we did sell our Vacs to the postal service in
Kansas city, after 9 11. They were used to clean the sorting machines.
The HEPA was needed in case there was any anthrax.

Rich Tisza
FEIN Power Tools, Inc.
1030 Alcon Street Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania 15220
(P) 412-922-8886
(F) 412-922-8767
(TF) 1-800-441-9878



I know this doesn't really clarify much, but I thought it was interesting that they were used to clean-up possible anthrax.

pk94100
10-27-2009, 04:55 PM
Shawn:

Thanks for the update. I do not know if there is such a thing as " an EPA approved HEPA vacuum for lead-safe dust removal". I would assume ( ... and you know what they say about assume) that if the vac is "sealed" and has a HEPA filter that then it would work for lead-safe clean up. If it works for anthrax-safe clean up then lead-safe clean up should be OK. Perhaps as the vacuum manufacturers realize the gold mine that is coming April 2010 when contractors have to have HEPA vacs that they will come out with "approved" HEPA vacs.

Thanks
pk

Tom Bainbridge
10-27-2009, 05:07 PM
without being obvious festool vacs have some of the heightest specs

if their standard vacs dont match what you want

they have vacs that will deal with asbsetos (as i understand it)

RWeber
10-27-2009, 08:57 PM
I'd really like to find out if the Festool vacs (22 & 33) are HEPA according to the EPA. I have both of them, I know they have HEPA filters, and just looking at design can't imagine that any air could ever leak anywhere without first passing through the primary and secondary filter. If they fit the bill, they're probably the cheapest HEPA vacs out there. Bet nobody ever thought about Festool as cheap . . .
Think I'm going to send emails.

frenchie
10-27-2009, 10:03 PM
If it's just for final cleanup? Like, after I sweep up?

('Cause Chuck says I have to sweep first, anyways, even with the 500$ one...)

Google Shopping, "sealed HEPA vac"... there's a bunch of household-type vacuums in the 150-250 range. Electrolux, Bissell, Eureka, Kenmore...

always-learning
10-28-2009, 12:22 AM
If it's just for final cleanup? Like, after I sweep up?

('Cause Chuck says I have to sweep first, anyways, even with the 500$ one...)

Google Shopping, "sealed HEPA vac"... there's a bunch of household-type vacuums in the 150-250 range. Electrolux, Bissell, Eureka, Kenmore...


Come on, Frenchie...

I didn't say sweep up. I told you to borrow Kreg's leaf blower and hit it with 200 mph winds. Then you use your HEPA vac to clean up the residue.


;-)

Dancing Dan
10-28-2009, 08:58 AM
I hadn't thought of household vacs for final clean-up. It would be nice to get some clarification but somehow I doubt it will be forthcoming. I can just imagine the lawsuits - "Are you saying you cleaned my client's home with a Kenmore upright vacuum cleaner?"

I haven't bought a vac yet for my new Makita track saw - I wonder if I could get a sealed hepa unit that would work for that - anyone seen any variable speed units out there?

DonMirabito
10-28-2009, 03:48 PM
This vac subject is interesting. I have just signed up for the LEW course coming to an area near me. I hope I can learn something about this in the class. When I first read the EPA guidelines I missed the specifics about the HEPA Vac in the footnotes. I just assumed I would probably be alright with my current vacs that have HEPA filters installed. I have VERY strong suspicions that there will never be a vac that can meet the somewhat arbitrary requirement described by the EPA document. They didn't cite any known international standards for vacs and I can't think of a ISO/ANSI standard that could be developed to prove that "no air" gets by the filter unless the filter is permanently sealed into the unit somehow. Additionally, even if it did seal completely the HEPA filter itself doesn't get ALL the particulates. So how could one determine which debris got by the filter (air leak) vs through the filter? I suspect this is just another example of non-technical bureaucrats trying to make up rules they have no business making. It sets us all up for HUGE law suits!! I bet Dick could tell us all about the fun attorneys will have with this...

As a side note, I just noticed an article in the latest Remodeling mag by a DC Attorney that called attention to the recent EPA suit settlement and suggests that the EPA didn't really fully consider the financial impacts to the clients that will be required to PAY for all this. There was a comment to the effect that some buracrat figured it would only be about a $35 upcharge per job. Really...seriously. I mean I just paid $350 for the course and now I might be required to pay a couple grand for new vacs and stock my trucks with EPA approved test kits, etc. Oh yeah, I might have to get my company(firm) certified too, but I can't find out how much the EPA wants to charge me for that. Yeah, that only comes to about $35/job...;-)

I foresee the clueless bottom feeders getting a fairly large uptick in their revenue forecasts...:-(

Don

P.S. I wonder what my GL insurance carrier will want to do about all this too?!? I'm sure they will want to take a little more from me too.

BGeezus
10-28-2009, 07:47 PM
I hope someone wakes up in time and thinks this through before it takes effect...it sounds half baked.An 8 hour course for something as complex as this issue is a joke.I took a 40hour OSHA Hazwopper that just barely touched on most things and had no side issues involved such as liability.

Anyone who has taken this training...what are they reqiring to do with the debris once you have it out the door? Can it go into a dumpster,does it require special handling?

Anyone give any thought to outside contamination? As in pre-existing conditions? Suppose in the past the house has been sanded and scraped the lead paint on the exterior? Could that contaminate soil (that kids may play in)? Are you then on the hook if someone wants to say you caused that while you were carrying debris out?

How about cars burning leaded fuel back in the day and idling in the driveway over time...does that cause long term soil contamination? Are we going to have to verify existing conditions prior to start of work?

Just some things off the top of my head without trying.It seems like a bunch of things need to be ironed out very quickly.

VTNorm
10-28-2009, 09:14 PM
I took a state sponsored HUD certified lead course last fall. It was a joke - but it was a free joke. A bunch of realtors and me sitting in a classroom for 4 hours. The multiple choice test for certification, well, I'm not sure who could fail it.

After you've secured the area, wet sanded, made the repairs, used the HEPA vac and cleaned-up as prescribed you double bag the debris and....TOSS IT IN THE TRASH!

This course was put in place to address the crackdown on landlords and pre-1978 rental housing that's in tough shape. Problem is, there's no money for enforcement so no one worries about it.

-Norm

frenchie
10-28-2009, 09:48 PM
I hope someone wakes up in time and thinks this through before it takes effect...it sounds half baked.An 8 hour course for something as complex as this issue is a joke.I took a 40hour OSHA Hazwopper that just barely touched on most things and had no side issues involved such as liability.

Anyone who has taken this training...what are they reqiring to do with the debris once you have it out the door? Can it go into a dumpster,does it require special handling?

Anyone give any thought to outside contamination? As in pre-existing conditions? Suppose in the past the house has been sanded and scraped the lead paint on the exterior? Could that contaminate soil (that kids may play in)? Are you then on the hook if someone wants to say you caused that while you were carrying debris out?

How about cars burning leaded fuel back in the day and idling in the driveway over time...does that cause long term soil contamination? Are we going to have to verify existing conditions prior to start of work?

Just some things off the top of my head without trying.It seems like a bunch of things need to be ironed out very quickly.


It's not remediation training, it's not meant to be remediation training, it doesn't certify you to do remediation work, it's not going to make you liable for past contamination.

It's just meant to be an improvement on current practise, where guys cover the whole house in dust.

Most of it, sounds like things a lot of us already do. Anyone who prides themselves on keeping & leaving the client's home actually clean, as opposed to "broom clean", won't find very much new, here. Really.

frenchie
10-28-2009, 09:51 PM
Here's the relevant sub-section:

§ 745.85 Work practice standards.
top

(a) Standards for renovation activities . Renovations must be performed by certified firms using certified renovators as directed in §745.89. The responsibilities of certified firms are set forth in §745.89(d) and the responsibilities of certified renovators are set forth in §745.90(b).

(1) Occupant protection . Firms must post signs clearly defining the work area and warning occupants and other persons not involved in renovation activities to remain outside of the work area. To the extent practicable, these signs must be in the primary language of the occupants. These signs must be posted before beginning the renovation and must remain in place and readable until the renovation and the post-renovation cleaning verification have been completed. If warning signs have been posted in accordance with 24 CFR 35.1345(b)(2) or 29 CFR 1926.62(m), additional signs are not required by this section.

(2) Containing the work area . Before beginning the renovation, the firm must isolate the work area so that no dust or debris leaves the work area while the renovation is being performed. In addition, the firm must maintain the integrity of the containment by ensuring that any plastic or other impermeable materials are not torn or displaced, and taking any other steps necessary to ensure that no dust or debris leaves the work area while the renovation is being performed. The firm must also ensure that containment is installed in such a manner that it does not interfere with occupant and worker egress in an emergency.

(i) Interior renovations . The firm must:

(A) Remove all objects from the work area, including furniture, rugs, and window coverings, or cover them with plastic sheeting or other impermeable material with all seams and edges taped or otherwise sealed.

(B) Close and cover all ducts opening in the work area with taped-down plastic sheeting or other impermeable material.

(C) Close windows and doors in the work area. Doors must be covered with plastic sheeting or other impermeable material. Doors used as an entrance to the work area must be covered with plastic sheeting or other impermeable material in a manner that allows workers to pass through while confining dust and debris to the work area.

(D) Cover the floor surface, including installed carpet, with taped-down plastic sheeting or other impermeable material in the work area 6 feet beyond the perimeter of surfaces undergoing renovation or a sufficient distance to contain the dust, whichever is greater.

(E) Use precautions to ensure that all personnel, tools, and other items, including the exteriors of containers of waste, are free of dust and debris before leaving the work area.

(ii) Exterior renovations . The firm must:

(A) Close all doors and windows within 20 feet of the renovation. On multi-story buildings, close all doors and windows within 20 feet of the renovation on the same floor as the renovation, and close all doors and windows on all floors below that are the same horizontal distance from the renovation.

(B) Ensure that doors within the work area that will be used while the job is being performed are covered with plastic sheeting or other impermeable material in a manner that allows workers to pass through while confining dust and debris to the work area.

(C) Cover the ground with plastic sheeting or other disposable impermeable material extending 10 feet beyond the perimeter of surfaces undergoing renovation or a sufficient distance to collect falling paint debris, whichever is greater, unless the property line prevents 10 feet of such ground covering.

(D) In certain situations, the renovation firm must take extra precautions in containing the work area to ensure that dust and debris from the renovation does not contaminate other buildings or other areas of the property or migrate to adjacent properties.

(3) Prohibited and restricted practices. The work practices listed below shall be prohibited or restricted during a renovation as follows:

(i) Open-flame burning or torching of lead-based paint is prohibited.

(ii) The use of machines that remove lead-based paint through high speed operation such as sanding, grinding, power planing, needle gun, abrasive blasting, or sandblasting, is prohibited unless such machines are used with HEPA exhaust control.

(iii) Operating a heat gun on lead-based paint is permitted only at temperatures below 1100 degrees Fahrenheit.

(4) Waste from renovations —(i) Waste from renovation activities must be contained to prevent releases of dust and debris before the waste is removed from the work area for storage or disposal. If a chute is used to remove waste from the work area, it must be covered.

(ii) At the conclusion of each work day and at the conclusion of the renovation, waste that has been collected from renovation activities must be stored under containment, in an enclosure, or behind a barrier that prevents release of dust and debris out of the work area and prevents access to dust and debris.

(iii) When the firm transports waste from renovation activities, the firm must contain the waste to prevent release of dust and debris.

(5) Cleaning the work area . After the renovation has been completed, the firm must clean the work area until no dust, debris or residue remains.

(i) Interior and exterior renovations . The firm must:

(A) Collect all paint chips and debris and, without dispersing any of it, seal this material in a heavy-duty bag.

(B) Remove the protective sheeting. Mist the sheeting before folding it, fold the dirty side inward, and either tape shut to seal or seal in heavy-duty bags. Sheeting used to isolate contaminated rooms from non-contaminated rooms must remain in place until after the cleaning and removal of other sheeting. Dispose of the sheeting as waste.

(ii) Additional cleaning for interior renovations . The firm must clean all objects and surfaces in the work area and within 2 feet of the work area in the following manner, cleaning from higher to lower:

(A) Walls . Clean walls starting at the ceiling and working down to the floor by either vacuuming with a HEPA vacuum or wiping with a damp cloth.

(B) Remaining surfaces . Thoroughly vacuum all remaining surfaces and objects in the work area, including furniture and fixtures, with a HEPA vacuum. The HEPA vacuum must be equipped with a beater bar when vacuuming carpets and rugs.

(C) Wipe all remaining surfaces and objects in the work area, except for carpeted or upholstered surfaces, with a damp cloth. Mop uncarpeted floors thoroughly, using a mopping method that keeps the wash water separate from the rinse water, such as the 2-bucket mopping method, or using a wet mopping system.

(to be cont)

frenchie
10-28-2009, 09:52 PM
(cont)


(b) Standards for post-renovation cleaning verification —(1) Interiors . (i) A certified renovator must perform a visual inspection to determine whether dust, debris or residue is still present. If dust, debris or residue is present, these conditions must be removed by re-cleaning and another visual inspection must be performed.

(ii) After a successful visual inspection, a certified renovator must:

(A) Verify that each windowsill in the work area has been adequately cleaned, using the following procedure.

( 1 ) Wipe the windowsill with a wet disposable cleaning cloth that is damp to the touch. If the cloth matches or is lighter than the cleaning verification card, the windowsill has been adequately cleaned.

( 2 ) If the cloth does not match and is darker than the cleaning verification card, re-clean the windowsill as directed in paragraphs (a)(5)(ii)(B) and (a)(5)(ii)(C) of this section, then either use a new cloth or fold the used cloth in such a way that an unused surface is exposed, and wipe the surface again. If the cloth matches or is lighter than the cleaning verification card, that windowsill has been adequately cleaned.

( 3 ) If the cloth does not match and is darker than the cleaning verification card, wait for 1 hour or until the surface has dried completely, whichever is longer.

( 4 )After waiting for the windowsill to dry, wipe the windowsill with a dry disposable cleaning cloth. After this wipe, the windowsill has been adequately cleaned.

(B) Wipe uncarpeted floors and countertops within the work area with a wet disposable cleaning cloth. Floors must be wiped using an application device with a long handle and a head to which the cloth is attached. The cloth must remain damp at all times while it is being used to wipe the surface for post-renovation cleaning verification. If the surface within the work area is greater than 40 square feet, the surface within the work area must be divided into roughly equal sections that are each less than 40 square feet. Wipe each such section separately with a new wet disposable cleaning cloth. If the cloth used to wipe each section of the surface within the work area matches the cleaning verification card, the surface has been adequately cleaned.

( 1 ) If the cloth used to wipe a particular surface section does not match the cleaning verification card, re-clean that section of the surface as directed in paragraphs (a)(5)(ii)(B) and (a)(5)(ii)(C) of this section, then use a new wet disposable cleaning cloth to wipe that section again. If the cloth matches the cleaning verification card, that section of the surface has been adequately cleaned.

( 2 ) If the cloth used to wipe a particular surface section does not match the cleaning verification card after the surface has been re-cleaned, wait for 1 hour or until the entire surface within the work area has dried completely, whichever is longer.

( 3 ) After waiting for the entire surface within the work area to dry, wipe each section of the surface that has not yet achieved post-renovation cleaning verification with a dry disposable cleaning cloth. After this wipe, that section of the surface has been adequately cleaned.

(iii) When the work area passes the post-renovation cleaning verification, remove the warning signs.

(2) Exteriors . A certified renovator must perform a visual inspection to determine whether dust, debris or residue is still present on surfaces in and below the work area, including windowsills and the ground. If dust, debris or residue is present, these conditions must be eliminated and another visual inspection must be performed. When the area passes the visual inspection, remove the warning signs.

(c) Optional dust clearance testing . Cleaning verification need not be performed if the contract between the renovation firm and the person contracting for the renovation or another Federal, State, Territorial, Tribal, or local law or regulation requires:

(1) The renovation firm to perform dust clearance sampling at the conclusion of a renovation covered by this subpart.

(2) The dust clearance samples are required to be collected by a certified inspector, risk assessor or dust sampling technician.

(3) The renovation firm is required to re-clean the work area until the dust clearance sample results are below the clearance standards in §745.227(e)(8) or any applicable State, Territorial, Tribal, or local standard.

(d) Activities conducted after post-renovation cleaning verification . Activities that do not disturb paint, such as applying paint to walls that have already been prepared, are not regulated by this subpart if they are conducted after post-renovation cleaning verification has been performed.


That's it.

frenchie
10-28-2009, 09:53 PM
If you want the whole shebang, with definitions & the rest of the legal fine points, it's here:

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=f07a90b05d8e4481e1f462a217a2b789&rgn=div5&view=text&node=40:30.0.1.1.13&idno=40#40:30.0.1.1.13.3

The basic overview page where I got this link from, is here:

http://www.epa.gov/lead/pubs/renovation.htm#requirements

BGeezus
10-28-2009, 10:13 PM
Thanks for all of the help Frenchie.

My Risk Assessment Team is all over it.

Chuck Kiser
10-29-2009, 06:31 AM
I'd really like to find out if the Festool vacs (22 & 33) are HEPA according to the EPA. I have both of them, I know they have HEPA filters, and just looking at design can't imagine that any air could ever leak anywhere without first passing through the primary and secondary filter. If they fit the bill, they're probably the cheapest HEPA vacs out there. Bet nobody ever thought about Festool as cheap . . .
Think I'm going to send emails.

E-mail response I received from Festool (the boss man) when I posed the question.

Thank you for the question.

At this point we cannot answer your question. It is difficult to get a definitive answer. We are in contact with different authorities to
find out what the requirements actually are. As soon as we can give you a solid answer, you will hear from us.

Independent from any EPA requirements, we always have been concerned for the health of our customers (and their customers). This is why we deliver all CT22 and CT33 vacs with Hepa filters. And this is why we design all of our tools with superior dust extraction.

Keep in mind that the filtration
is just the very last step in dust extraction. Only the dust that reaches the Hepa filter can be filtered. If your tool doesn't pick the dust up, but
throws it all over the place, the Hepa filter won't do you any good. And if the dust sticks to your workpiece, your clothing, the tool, and the hose,
because you are not using an antistatic system, the dust won't make it to the filter.

For us this is less a question of EPA requirements and regulations. It is a question of providing the best dust extraction available, no matter
what the requirements are, because we believe in the benefits of good dust extraction for you, your customers, your tools, and the environment.

Thanks,

Christian

pk94100
10-29-2009, 07:01 AM
After a little rummaging online I found this site that lists a certified HEPA vacuum (Euroclean GD930) that is being loaned out by the Michigan government to its residents when they do lead dust clean up. Here is the page that lists the vacs name... http://www.michigan.gov/documents/HEPA_Distribution_94633_7.pdf

Here are the specs for the GD930 vac ... http://www.dsmith-inc.com/euroclean/930-2.htm Note that it has a beater bar accessory that is "required" when cleaning rugs.

BGeezus
10-29-2009, 07:35 AM
These responses are all wishy-washy.This isn't rocket science.The vacuum must HEPA(high efficiency particulate air) filter the exhaust.It should expel less than 99.97% of the particles sized .3 microns and higher.Not a cloud of dust like your old Craftsman.The manufacturer should know if it does or does not.

The manufacturer is losing a lot of business by not answering it straight out.They must be aware of the new regs.

I think it's smart to look at the asbestos abatement industry at this point.I have bought supplies from this place in the past,they are not my first choice when shopping for price however:
http://www.aramsco.com/eserv/eclipse.ecl?PROCID=WEBDISP.WOEB.MAIN&ID~1=105&ID~2=1190112&CLEV=MORE&TRACKNO=J2144403367

I have a Nilfisk.Made in Sweden or Denmark.It's a quality unit.Definately not cheap.I don't care for the blow moulded plastic housing,kind of rough surface compared to metal,if the idea is to keep the tools themselves spotlessly clean so as not to bring contamination into a clean space.Aramsco sells to the asbestos/lead and mold industry.Any way you slice it these new regulations has put you and I and anyone who swings a hammer in the abatement business.

These regs make a lot of sense,that is the problem, I believe.It is a half assed abatement.

It acknowledges a problem without following through with a thorough solution.The lawyers are going to have a field day.Our insurance companies are going to run for the exits.

Dean N.
10-29-2009, 01:17 PM
After a little rummaging online I found this site that lists a certified HEPA vacuum (Euroclean GD930) that is being loaned out by the Michigan government to its residents when they do lead dust clean up. Here is the page that lists the vacs name... http://www.michigan.gov/documents/HEPA_Distribution_94633_7.pdf

Here are the specs for the GD930 vac ... http://www.dsmith-inc.com/euroclean/930-2.htm Note that it has a beater bar accessory that is "required" when cleaning rugs.

I don't see where it says the vacuum has been certified for any type of hazardous material cleanup. They only state that it comes with a HEPA filter as standard equipment.

hdrider_chgo
10-29-2009, 02:32 PM
Maybe someone that has taken the course can answer this, but I saw these lead-testing sticks being demonstrated yesterday at the Remodeling Show in Indianapolis:

http://www.leadcheck.com/

They give instant results. I saw mention above about sending swabs into a lab. Could these be used instead?

BGeezus
10-29-2009, 07:01 PM
I don't see where it says the vacuum has been certified for any type of hazardous material cleanup. They only state that it comes with a HEPA filter as standard equipment.

Dean,check out the link in the post above yours,that unit is listed and comes with a description saying that it meets federal compliance for hazardous material.Aramsco also has a good list of specs for the vacuums also,if you want to compare amperage and suction.You won't find the nonsense claims of 9 horsepower or whatever Home Depot claims their vacuums to be nowadays.

frenchie
10-29-2009, 07:12 PM
Here are the specs for the GD930 vac ... http://www.dsmith-inc.com/euroclean/930-2.htm Note that it has a beater bar accessory that is "required" when cleaning rugs.

"Applicable Standard: MIL-STD-282 "

Wow.

So the only US standard we can find, is a military spec? Too funny...

...

Are we maybe overthinking this? The EPA legalese doesn't name an applicable standard, all it says (in the definitions section, that I didn't paste earlier) is:


HEPA vacuum means a vacuum cleaner which has been designed with a high-efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filter as the last filtration stage. A HEPA filter is a filter that is capable of capturing particles of 0.3 microns with 99.97% efficiency. The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it.

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&sid=f07a90b05d8e4481e1f462a217a2b789&rgn=div5&view=text&node=40:30.0.1.1.13&idno=40#40:30.0.1.1.13.3

I can't find any mention of any testing standard, anywhere on the EPA website, for vacuums. Only the 99.97% 3-micron for filters.

Dean N.
10-29-2009, 11:13 PM
Dean,check out the link in the post above yours,that unit is listed and comes with a description saying that it meets federal compliance for hazardous material.Aramsco also has a good list of specs for the vacuums also,if you want to compare amperage and suction.You won't find the nonsense claims of 9 horsepower or whatever Home Depot claims their vacuums to be nowadays.
Which one?? Aramsco has at least 15 vacuums listed depending on which list you look at. They also have one of the most screwed up web sites I have tried to look at in a while. I tried looking around on there with Firefox and Internet Explorer and only some of the links will open with detailed information about the machines and I keep getting this page that says my session has timed out with a link back to their home page. You just keep going around in circles. I think you have to take another special class just to learn how to track down an approved vac.

A brand name and part number or a working link to an "approved" machine would be great.

Thanks

always-learning
10-30-2009, 06:48 AM
Here's the relevant sub-section:

§ 745.85 Work practice standards.
top

(

(E) Use precautions to ensure that all personnel, tools, and other items, including the exteriors of containers of waste, are free of dust and debris before leaving the work area.

)

Ok, Frenchie,

After April 2010, I'm no longer working on homes older than 1978.

I can't see it being even remotely possible that I can conform to these standards.

Absolutely impossible to guarantee myself, and my waste containers are free of dust prior to leaving the protected work area.

BGeezus
10-30-2009, 06:51 AM
Which one?? Aramsco has at least 15 vacuums listed depending on which list you look at. They also have one of the most screwed up web sites I have tried to look at in a while.

Thanks

Dean,I tried the link after seeing your post and got the "session timing out message" also.I simply went to Aramsco.com > clicked on "Asbestos & Lead Abatement" (located in the left menu column) > clicked on "vacuums" > and received 15 results by 5 manufacturers.

Here is the link to the URL I have copied for the page I am on:

http://www.aramsco.com/eserv/eclipse.ecl?PROCID=WEBDISP.WOEB.MAIN&ID~1=105&ID~2=1190112&CLEV=MORE&TRACKNO=J2144403367

Maybe those URLs are ineffective after 12 hours? For some kind of security thing? (I don't know how these things work).

The Euroclean GD930 is among that list,the link I am using right now:

http://www.aramsco.com/eserv/eclipse.ecl?PROCID=WEBDISP.WOEB.MAIN&ID~1=105&ID~2=1190112&ID~3=119002403&CLEV=4&TRACKNO=J2144403367

I am not a big fan of Aramsco or the website either.But they are a big supplier to the Abatement industry in the New York area and I believe they have national locations.Their prices always seem high,but some of their stuff is hard to locate competitvely elsewhere,and I have ended up getting stuff from them in the past.

I'll try to re-freshen the links after work.I guess they go bad after half a day or so.

BGeezus
10-30-2009, 07:14 AM
Ok, Frenchie,

After April 2010, I'm no longer working on homes older than 1978.

I can't see it being even remotely possible that I can conform to these standards.

Absolutely impossible to guarantee myself, and my waste containers are free of dust prior to leaving the protected work area.

This is where airlocks,negative air machines and decontaminatin areas are used on a "real" abatement job. This is why this seems like a "half-assed" abatement procedure the Feds are recommending.

Is there any line drawn to determine when we are supposed to use "Abatement Lite" and when things fall into full-on lead abatement? I mean is 12 windows OK,but a kitchen,2 baths and the foyer fall into full abatement procedures?

frenchie
10-30-2009, 10:39 AM
Ok, Frenchie,

After April 2010, I'm no longer working on homes older than 1978.

I'd starve. Looking back... my entire career to date, would consist of one (1) house.


I can't see it being even remotely possible that I can conform to these standards.

Absolutely impossible to guarantee myself, and my waste containers are free of dust prior to leaving the protected work area.

Read it again - it doesn't say you have to guarantee there's no dust. It says you have to use precautions to ensure...

The whole program reads like that - new rules about how we work, nothing about the final result.

I reckon it's like OSHA rules: you're not automatically responsible for any & all workplace injuries; just for having taken the mandated/necessary precautions against it.

Dean N.
10-30-2009, 12:07 PM
....The Euroclean GD930 is among that list,,,,

Thanks for trying to fix the links, still not much luck with that site. Here is a link to the same Euroclean GD930 on another site from post #45 of this thread.
http://www.dsmith-inc.com/euroclean/930-2.htm

I don't see anything there that says that machine has been tested and approved by anyone for use with any kind of hazardous material. They only state that a HEPA filter is standard equipment with that model.

They list the "Applicable Standard: MIL-STD-282 " but I don't see anything that says this machine has actually been tested and certified to conform to all of the design specifications and performance standards of that military spec.

At this point, do we even know if the EPA is actually going to require the machine to be tested and receive certification of compliance with any standard?

From the first post of this thread:
"the EPA rules that define a HEPA vac says...The vacuum cleaner must be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it"

If that is the only actual requirement by the EPA then who is to say that any vacuum that can be fitted with a HEPA filter doesn't comply with that description. I think it is generally safe to say that all vacuums are designed to expel all of the air drawn into them through a filter. If that filter is a HEPA filter then that vacuum would seem to comply with the EPA description above.

What a mess this whole thing is. It's like watching two trains speeding towards each other on the same track. You don't know exactly what's going to happen but it's probably not going to be very good.

Dean

always-learning
10-30-2009, 06:33 PM
I'd starve. Looking back... my entire career to date, would consist of one (1) house.



Read it again - it doesn't say you have to guarantee there's no dust. It says you have to use precautions to ensure...

The whole program reads like that - new rules about how we work, nothing about the final result.

I reckon it's like OSHA rules: you're not automatically responsible for any & all workplace injuries; just for having taken the mandated/necessary precautions against it.

So what your saying is that we just need to take precautions, such as the air locks.

When I took the class, they specifically told us that we were to "vacuum ourselves off, prior to each exit to the dumpster to ensure that we wouldn't be transmitting the dust to other rooms in the pathway to the exit of the home."

If I did exactly what they said I should do, the bathroom demo I did yesterday, wouldn't be done until next Tuesday. I'm sure the homeowner would love to get a bill for $20,000 to do a bathroom due to the requirements that they're imposing.

When I started this job, I gave them the pamphlet and asked for them to sign my "receipt" documentation. They were absolutely freaked out that I have federal regulations that I have to follow. They signed it, but at the same time, they said that " Well, I raised three kids in this house and they're all ok..... I don't understand this regulatory stuff, but it seems a little overzealous if you ask me..."

I agreed, and I said that it was paperwork that was for both of our benefits. Me, by telling you that your house "may" contain lead paint, and you being aware of it.

They're both retired, and children long gone, so it's not really an issue, but it was interesting to see their response / reaction to my request to "inform them" of their impending doom.....

;-)

BGeezus
10-30-2009, 06:40 PM
Thanks for trying to fix the links, still not much luck with that site. Here is a link to the same Euroclean GD930 on another site from post #45 of this thread.
http://www.dsmith-inc.com/euroclean/930-2.htm

I don't see anything there that says that machine has been tested and approved by anyone for use with any kind of hazardous material. They only state that a HEPA filter is standard equipment with that model.



Dean

Dean this is what the Aramsco site says about the Euroclean GD930HSP as a product description,since you are not able to view it:

This 4-gallon capacity canister vacuum is designed for big professional cleaning jobs and has a lightweight superior design with high power suction that makes it easier to handle and more efficient. With its filtration of 99.97% at 0.3 microns, the GD 930 HEPA meets federal standards and totally removes hazardous dust and dirt. For greater maneuverability, try an optional backpack harness.



You might want to give Aramsco a call,they will probably tell you what the larger Abatement companies are using for lead and asbestos.Come to think of it I'll try to call them Monday morning myself.I am sure they are only offering products that are compliant,as they are not in the business of supplying specific product lines,but products that the Abatement contractors need for compliance.

I don't think you are going to find an EPA approved list,atleast not from the EPA.
You probably won't find manufacturers making testing claims either.Just have to find what others, that have a hell of a lot more to lose than you or I,are using.

BGeezus
10-30-2009, 06:59 PM
So what your saying is that we just need to take precautions, such as the air locks.

When I took the class, they specifically told us that we were to "vacuum ourselves off, prior to each exit to the dumpster to ensure that we wouldn't be transmitting the dust to other rooms in the pathway to the exit of the home."

;-)

Boy,I can't wait to take this course.If they are requiring you to to decontaminate with every trip out,they are telling you that what you are dealing with is highly toxic.

What kind of PPE are they recomending?...I mean it can't be anything less than fully sealed and hooded Tyvek suit with full face respirator and P-100 filters(with daily documented fit testing) changed out every 4 hours,and preferably PAPR respiration.

I mean if you are taking those steps to protect occupants,you have to provide 100x greater protection to workers that you are responsible for,since they are in the middle of it in a tightly contained space.A full time Abatement contractor once told me that he had more to worry about from employee lawsuits than occupant lawsuits.

Dean N.
10-30-2009, 10:13 PM
Dean this is what the Aramsco site says about the Euroclean GD930HSP as a product description.....
Thanks, that description is different from what I read on a few other sites.

The salesman that wrote that should go into politics. The way they word it, I still believe that it's the HEPA filter they put inside the thing that "meets federal standards". The same type of filter that can be purchased at the local hardware store for around $40.00 and installed in most common shop type vacuums. Then they go on to say "totally removes hazardous dust and dirt". Well, we know that isn't true. By definition a HEPA filter can allow everything smaller than .3 microns and a few particles larger than that to pass right through . That's good enough for me, but their statement is inaccurate.

Any machine with a HEPA filter installed in it can be said to meet Federal standards if the standards we are talking about are the standards for HEPA filtration as long as "all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it".

Dean

Bill Robinson
10-31-2009, 08:41 AM
When I started this job, I gave them the pamphlet and asked for them to sign my "receipt" documentation. They were absolutely freaked out that I have federal regulations that I have to follow. They signed it, but at the same time, they said that " Well, I raised three kids in this house and they're all ok..... I don't understand this regulatory stuff, but it seems a little overzealous if you ask me..."

I agreed, and I said that it was paperwork that was for both of our benefits. Me, by telling you that your house "may" contain lead paint, and you being aware of it.

They're both retired, and children long gone, so it's not really an issue, but it was interesting to see their response / reaction to my request to "inform them" of their impending doom.....

;-)

Chuck, I am teaching Lead Classes and will soon be certified to teach the RRP one, once the paperwork is in.

In every lead awareness class (that is what I am teaching now Lead Awareness) there is someone who has that response, I have been around it all of my life and it has caused no harm to me and mine. One response is to say you might be CEO of a bailed out company now or a high ranking government official if it wasn't for the lead. That is meant to be followed by a smiley face folks.

There is one in every crowd. You might take that as a red flag, however in these more difficult times it is not as easy to pay heed to the red flags.

Yo took the course, did they not convince you there is a real hazard?
Returning from Remodeling Blll R

Brice Burrell
10-31-2009, 09:40 AM
..........Any machine with a HEPA filter installed in it can be said to meet Federal standards if the standards we are talking about are the standards for HEPA filtration as long as "all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it".

Dean

We've heard this a number of times in this thread, I don't know why anyone would assume it's that simple. The "with none of the air leaking past it" part is likely to be making the vacuum manufactures reluctant to answer the question definitively. "None of the air leaking past" is ambiguous at best since no existing standard is given nor is one defined. As was already pointed out the vac manufactures are going to profit from these new regulations but I don't see any of them moving to make their vacs compliant to a non-defined standard. When a standard is defined or precedent set then the companies will race to meet requirements to sells us vacs.

I'm sitting tight until things get sorted out, if that every happens. Seems it isn't going to be a good idea to work on a pre-1978 house with young children, there's a good third to half of my business out the window....

Bill Robinson
10-31-2009, 09:46 AM
Seems it isn't going to be a good idea to work on a pre-1978 house with young children, there's a good third to half of my business out the window....

He says as he slips on his protective clothing and P-100 respirator.

Protected Bill R

frenchie
10-31-2009, 10:40 AM
"None of the air leaking past" is ambiguous at best since no existing standard is given nor is one defined.

It's even more ambiguous, than that:

"be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it."

I could drive a semi truck through that loophole, and I don't even know how to drive a semi.

MarkMc
10-31-2009, 11:40 AM
It's even more ambiguous, than that:

"be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it."

I could drive a semi truck through that loophole, and I don't even know how to drive a semi.

Seems rather simple if one uses a bit of common sense really. Remember most of the vacuum folks don't make the actual filters, and unless they are required to, eliminating the possibility to use after market secondary or even primary manufacturer consumables, well you'll get the picture when you go an buy a new set of Peterbilt brand tires, sold only in sets of 18. Bamboo stem steamer not included.

Dean N.
10-31-2009, 11:40 AM
We've heard this a number of times in this thread, I don't know why anyone would assume it's that simple. The "with none of the air leaking past it" part is likely to be making the vacuum manufactures reluctant to answer the question definitively. "None of the air leaking past" is ambiguous at best since no existing standard is given nor is one defined. As was already pointed out the vac manufactures are going to profit from these new regulations but I don't see any of them moving to make their vacs compliant to a non-defined standard. When a standard is defined or precedent set then the companies will race to meet requirements to sells us vacs.

I'm sitting tight until things get sorted out, if that every happens. Seems it isn't going to be a good idea to work on a pre-1978 house with young children, there's a good third to half of my business out the window....


It's even more ambiguous, than that:

"be designed so that all the air drawn into the machine is expelled through the HEPA filter with none of the air leaking past it."

I could drive a semi truck through that loophole, and I don't even know how to drive a semi.
I agree with all of that. It says designed so that no air leaks around, It doesn't say tested and certified by an EPA approved testing agency to actually do that.

At this point there may not be any commercially available machine that, if tested, would be found to not allow any air, not one single molecule, to leak around the filter. They have all been designed to pass all of the air through the filter, but there is probably a lot of variation in how well they actually do that.

Even the cheapest, simplest vac could be made to pass that test with a $40.00 HEPA replacement filter and a few cents worth of silicone calking. The manufacturers will lobby for a complicated set of specifications that will benefit them and we may end up being forced into buying $1,000.00 + machines and $300.00 filters.

Dean

MarkMc
10-31-2009, 11:57 AM
Even the cheapest, simplest vac could be made to pass that test with a $40.00 HEPA replacement filter and a few cents worth of silicone calking. The manufacturers will lobby for a complicated set of specifications that will benefit them and we may end up being forced into buying $1,000.00 + machines and $300.00 filters.


There are two critical paths here; the seal(s) between the filter and the housing, and the motor cooling air supply. The need to add a few cents of "silicone calking" would tend to indicate improper design, arguably granted.

Dean N.
10-31-2009, 12:06 PM
Wow, I didn't think about the motor cooling air having to be filtered as well. That would eliminate all of the machines I am familiar with.

Dean

MarkMc
10-31-2009, 01:49 PM
I'm not sure that is the case, but it does need to considered as does the disturbance potential of the exhaust stream. Design wise, the thru filter req is the easy one.

S.Joisey
10-31-2009, 04:30 PM
You know, I thought I was being cheap the way I vac, but maybe I'm not so bad. I have 30' of 2 1/4" hose on the truck, and a large shop vac. When doing a major clean up, I keep the vac outside, bring the hose in through a door or window, and vacuum away. On 2nd story jobs, I haul the vac up on a rope. As long as I seal the opening where the hose comes through, I'm as good as HEPA ( well, on the inside, anyway).

On jobs that last a while, I've already run 2" PVC pipe into the job with the vac outside and hose connections inside. Keeps the dust and the noise down.

It's worth the time to set up on larger jobs, but on smaller ones I wish I had a more portable vac system.

S.Joisey
10-31-2009, 04:32 PM
So, is government going to regulate which HEPA vacs can be used, or are they really concerned about the end result- whether the swipe tests are clean?

m beezo
10-31-2009, 05:55 PM
There is a concern with the swipe tests. I have done about 6 homes after taking a lead testing class. You can pass the certification test with 80% grade but you still have to do what you were taught.

One thing that I have thought about and noticed when we did our swipe tests. The sooner after you do the work, get it all cleaned up and test right away the easier it seemed to pass the test. You have to know that I do the job and clean up as required. Then a week later have the test done. By that time the family has been jumping on and off furniture, opening and shutting curtains and shades, running around. If you have not guessed by the description this family had kids. I may have cleaned up all the lead dust I generated, some of the lead dust down in the cracks of the hardwood floors, in the carpet. But their activity could still stir up the lead dust that was there before and that I am not sure I would ever get out. On this house I did not pass the first test.

Other thing, a lot of what they are looking for is what I would call common sense. You clean up a little better than you might have before. You use a zip wall system to isolate the area. You mop the floors instead of just vac. We should already be using dust control as much as possible.

Also, try to be there when the tests by the qualified party are there. I learned a lot by watching and asking questions about how it was done, what they looked for, how to do my job better. When I did not pass what I needed to do to help get it over the hump.

frenchie
10-31-2009, 05:55 PM
You know, I thought I was being cheap the way I vac, but maybe I'm not so bad. I have 30' of 2 1/4" hose on the truck, and a large shop vac. When doing a major clean up, I keep the vac outside, bring the hose in through a door or window, and vacuum away. On 2nd story jobs, I haul the vac up on a rope. As long as I seal the opening where the hose comes through, I'm as good as HEPA ( well, on the inside, anyway).

On jobs that last a while, I've already run 2" PVC pipe into the job with the vac outside and hose connections inside. Keeps the dust and the noise down.

It's worth the time to set up on larger jobs, but on smaller ones I wish I had a more portable vac system.

I'm pretty sure that sticking the vac outside (or sticking an an exhaust house out the window, which is what I do), won't fly anymore. The whole point is to contain the dust.

always-learning
10-31-2009, 07:10 PM
Yo took the course, did they not convince you there is a real hazard?
Returning from Remodeling Blll R

Absolutely, it is a hazard, at least in my mind.

I also explained to them that their kids weren't left "unsupervised" and weren't allowed to peel and eat the paint chips on their window sills. It all comes down to parenting.

The real issue is the contracting world (and DIY world) being unaware that the grinding, sanding, expelling by whatever means that they can, of lead based paint can be hazardous to us as humans, especially those under the age of 6. I'm positive that I have lead in my bones, since that is where the body stores it long term when it can no longer be expelled naturally, and I'm relatively healthy.

I was born and raised in a home that was built in 1905 and I lived there until I was 21. The difference was, that my mother kept the house clean, and under relatively good repair. She painted when it was needed, and kept the "lead" contained during my childhood and into my teenage years, where I began my life with a brush. She kept our house in good shape, being the single mother she was, and I believe that is the key here. When people let their homes go to SH!T, and allow their children to remain unattended for long periods of time, that is one of the main ways that exposure occurs.

Naturally, when someone disturbs the paint, by removing window casings, sashes, stools and aprons, amongst other parts of the house trim and walls, if they didn't clean up their dust, with mop / water / TSP, I'm sure that exposure happens. Not many people are aware that TSP is one of the few cleaners that "binds" with lead dust, and allows it to be cleaned up more effectively than just mopping alone.

I'm convinced that the "making people (contractors, homeowners, landlords, DIY's) aware of the potential hazard is worth the effort, even if it only saves one child from growing up developmentally challenged. I am concerned that the new regulations may be just another way for lawyers to grab hold of another scare tactic scenario which can increase their bottom line, hence the reluctance to continue working in older homes. I'm sure I will still do reno's in these older homes, it's just that I'll be more careful about my dust escaping practices.


In all honesty, I believe that it's the parents responsibility to become aware of the potential hazards that their young children face, and by passing out the pamphlet, I'm doing my part to help educate them. I just hope that I don't get involved in any lawsuits over this issue, anytime in the near or distant future.

always-learning
10-31-2009, 07:20 PM
You know, I thought I was being cheap the way I vac, but maybe I'm not so bad. I have 30' of 2 1/4" hose on the truck, and a large shop vac. When doing a major clean up, I keep the vac outside, bring the hose in through a door or window, and vacuum away. On 2nd story jobs, I haul the vac up on a rope. As long as I seal the opening where the hose comes through, I'm as good as HEPA ( well, on the inside, anyway).

On jobs that last a while, I've already run 2" PVC pipe into the job with the vac outside and hose connections inside. Keeps the dust and the noise down.

It's worth the time to set up on larger jobs, but on smaller ones I wish I had a more portable vac system.

Joisey,

When you take the class, you'll find out that you're not allowed to just "expell" the lead based paint dust outside. It's also in violation of the standard, because you're polluting the exterior environment of the home.

There are rules and regulations that require you to contain the dust even if you're doing work OUTSIDE the house to the exterior surfaces. Therefore, by you just expelling the lead based paint dust outside, you're in violation of the standards....

Not picking on you, I'm just pointing out the same thoughts that I had when I took the class, which were shot down by the instructor.



EDIT: Didn't know Frenchie already told you this in the post above.....

frenchie
10-31-2009, 09:18 PM
I've been thinking that's going to be the one really big, major change in my work practice. I always stick a window fan in the window, to keep my plastic-sealed-off area under negative pressure & make sure no draft will carry dust into the rest of the home; but also to help clear some of it out, for my own comfort/convenience.

I may have to get an air cleaner...

Also, the disposable wipes thing. I usually use a mop & a rag & buckets of soapy water.

m beezo
10-31-2009, 10:30 PM
Expelling it to the outside is probably not going to fly. It might if you run it outside thru some sort of air filter system.

I have a customer who had extremely high levels of lead around the perimeter of the house. Before they would buy their house they now live in there was a requirement that 6 ft out from the house 1 ft down had the dirt removed and replaced. I am guessing that years of paint scraping and maybe even just runoff caused the problems.

One of the big issues I have heard of is old wood windows that are opened and closed. Each time they go up and down a small amount of dust is ground by the movement and can cause problems. Also it was pointed out in my class, although I do not recall the documentation, that there is more lead related problems among the poor and those that rent. Or some combination of those factors. Seems the thinking was partly that these folks will use the windows for cooling since they cannot use AC. The raising and lowering of the windows causes the problems. Or so I was told.

As far as not working on older homes anymore I would be in severe trouble. I do not know if I have worked on a house less than 40 years old for the past 5 or so years.

I also think there are some rules about how much you work you can do before the regulations kick in. Not sure but I do not recall if you cut the plaster to put in an outlet that you have to do all the lead related stuff. Maybe even up to a certain number of square ft of work. After that it kicks in. Will have to look thru my stuff sometime and see if I can find it.

always-learning
10-31-2009, 11:21 PM
[QUOTE=m beezo;494861
I also think there are some rules about how much you work you can do before the regulations kick in. Not sure but I do not recall if you cut the plaster to put in an outlet that you have to do all the lead related stuff. Maybe even up to a certain number of square ft of work. After that it kicks in. Will have to look thru my stuff sometime and see if I can find it.[/QUOTE]

M.


Here are some interesting facts according to the manual they provided during the class
Page 25:


Before 1940 87% of all houses built have lead based paint

1940-1959 69%

1960-1978 24%

All housing in general: approximately 40% contain lead based paint
____________________________________________

Pre Renovation Education Rules


EPA requires all contractors to distribute the lead hazard information pamphlet to residents of PRE 1978 housing before they begin any renovation or remodeling activities.

Written Acknowledgment from the client that they have received the pamphlet

Non residential dwellings, child occupied facilities, dorm rooms, studios or housing for the elderly are EXEMPT from the PRE Pamphlet rule.


(specifically to NJ tenant occupied buildings)
Chapter 28 of the NJ State Housing Code:
5:28-2-1 (i), 5


i. Jobs that involve less than 20 Square feet of EXTERIOR paint per component are exempt
ii.Jobs that involve less than 2 square feet of interior paint per component are exempt
iii Ten percent or less of the total surface area of an interior or exterior component with a small surfaces area, including, but not limited to, window sills, baseboards or trim




Way too much to post here.

ibkruzin
11-01-2009, 05:55 AM
We took the RRP class at Indy too. Attached is a picture I took of the sign that the instructor recommended we place just outside of the IMMEDIATE work area. This applies whether you work inside or outside.

BGeezus
11-01-2009, 08:27 AM
Chuck, I am teaching Lead Classes and will soon be certified to teach the RRP one, once the paperwork is in.

Returning from Remodeling Blll R

Bill,There are a ton of questions,I am glad we have this forum to have a kind of Pre-class. I am glad I won't be going in cold.

Can you explain why there is a difference between the remodeling rules and Abatement? If we are exposing the same materials and exposing our workers,why are there 2 standards of protection?

BGeezus
11-01-2009, 08:37 AM
There is a concern with the swipe tests. I have done about 6 homes after taking a lead testing class. You can pass the certification test with 80% grade but you still have to do what you were taught.

One thing that I have thought about and noticed when we did our swipe tests.

Beez,I'm a little late to the show,but are you required to do 3rd party testing? Are you required to test both going in and going out?

Since you have done a few jobs with the new procedures...are you finding a way to reap profits from this?

Bill Robinson
11-01-2009, 08:54 AM
Bill,There are a ton of questions,I am glad we have this forum to have a kind of Pre-class. I am glad I won't be going in cold.

Can you explain why there is a difference between the remodeling rules and Abatement? If we are exposing the same materials and exposing our workers,why are there 2 standards of protection?

Big B, there are similar practices in both areas.

While there may be differences in the details the basics are pretty much the same.

As I see it the primary differences are in the paperwork, certifications and testing.

It is still important to reduce lead exposure.

Abatement requires everyone on the job to be certified while the RRP rule requires a certificate holder be on site for set up and breakdown.

Like I said, IMO the basics are the same when it comes to containment, dust reduction and cleanup.

And if you notice there are changes being made as we speak--figuratively.

The other B

S.Joisey
11-01-2009, 11:14 AM
I've been thinking that's going to be the one really big, major change in my work practice. I always stick a window fan in the window, to keep my plastic-sealed-off area under negative pressure & make sure no draft will carry dust into the rest of the home; but also to help clear some of it out, for my own comfort/convenience.

I may have to get an air cleaner...

Also, the disposable wipes thing. I usually use a mop & a rag & buckets of soapy water.

That's a good point. Creating negative pressure is an important part of preventing dust from migrating to other parts of a building. You might get an air filter, but it is tough to see how that would be as effective as negative pressure. Putting a blower with a HEPA filter into a window would work, but seems like it would be costly.

S.Joisey
11-01-2009, 11:19 AM
Joisey,

When you take the class, you'll find out that you're not allowed to just "expell" the lead based paint dust outside. It's also in violation of the standard, because you're polluting the exterior environment of the home.

There are rules and regulations that require you to contain the dust even if you're doing work OUTSIDE the house to the exterior surfaces. Therefore, by you just expelling the lead based paint dust outside, you're in violation of the standards....

Not picking on you, I'm just pointing out the same thoughts that I had when I took the class, which were shot down by the instructor.



EDIT: Didn't know Frenchie already told you this in the post above.....

No offense at all. One of the benefits of this thread is it helps me think though my proceedures. I realized as I was typing I was creating an exterior problem.

BGeezus
11-01-2009, 12:07 PM
That's a good point. Creating negative pressure is an important part of preventing dust from migrating to other parts of a building. You might get an air filter, but it is tough to see how that would be as effective as negative pressure. Putting a blower with a HEPA filter into a window would work, but seems like it would be costly.

I use a negative air machine in commercial enviroments where there is no other means (such as windows) for ventilation.Otherwise the dust just hangs in the air.The negative air machine just sucks air in one end,filters it,and sends it out the other end of the machine.This is what I have:

http://www.jondon.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=26014

It is a common piece of abatement equipment for asbestos and mold.It has 2 speeds 1000 and 2000CFM. I vent it to the outside thru a door or window with 12" flexiduct you can get for it.You can probably put 200' or more of duct to exhaust it.It has 2 prefilters and a HEPA.In theory it shouldn't exhaust any particles larger than .3 microns,but some gets past the filter,believe me.

This machine is LOUD,a never ending drone like standing near the compressor.Really needs a 20 amp circuit with nothing else on it or it will pop breakers all day.

These negative air machines come in different sizes.The one above is definately a 2 man job to get it off the truck and in place.You size them to the work area,but bigger is more effective.

On abatement jobs the negative air machine is the first thing set up and the last thing shut off (after everything else is broken down).Dust cannot make it out of the work area,providing it is sealed completely,as the makeup air is actually being sucked from the rooms adjacent to the work area (on the other side of your plastic)

Everything in a real abatement job is about redundancy.You don't rely on one thing alone.The Hepa vac in theory should expel nothing.But if it does you still have the plastic dust barrier and negative air machine to stop and capture the dust..

frenchie
11-01-2009, 03:39 PM
That's a good point. Creating negative pressure is an important part of preventing dust from migrating to other parts of a building. You might get an air filter, but it is tough to see how that would be as effective as negative pressure. Putting a blower with a HEPA filter into a window would work, but seems like it would be costly.

S'what I meant... and yeah, it's costlier than I thought.

m beezo
11-01-2009, 07:00 PM
Beez,I'm a little late to the show,but are you required to do 3rd party testing? Are you required to test both going in and going out?

Since you have done a few jobs with the new procedures...are you finding a way to reap profits from this?

On the jobs I did you had a test going in and out by a 3rd party. The test going in was to show you where you needed to work with lead related work practices.

I do not recall the numbers for sure but a swipe test will only do the surface that it is touching as I recall. It does not test any further. So if you had a 3 bedroom house and 2 bedrooms had been repainted several times since 1978 they still have lead base paint there. It is just covered by the next couple of layers of paint and contained. That does not mean that little Johnny cannot come along and chew the heck out of the window sill and get lead paint out of it. But he is as likely to get it as he would by touching the trim and then sucking his fingers. That is what the swipe tests show. Or a simplification of the process.

So after you had worked in the houses I worked on the areas tested again were the ones showing problems. One house we worked on had 90 areas tested. This included doors, door trim, baseboards, windows, window trim, handrails, a couple of walls that had peeling paint. Most walls were pretty much never tested unless they were in bad shape. Our biggest concern was what my inspector called chewable surfaces. An area where a kid could bite down on something. I found it rather interesting that you could have lead show up in one window in a bedroom that had 2 windows. We could have addressed only one window if we were truly only doing lead work. On our jobs we were doing complete room makeovers. But the only window that would be tested again was the one we worked on.

Reap profits? Not sure I ever reap profits. Made some money, yeah. First one was a bit of a learning experience and I had a tester who walked me thru the process and told me what they were looking for. Part of the problem was my list I was given to work from was somewhat coded. It might say 3rd bedroom window, east wall, lower casing. That is pretty good description but depending on some areas it might read 3bdwElc. I had no idea what that would mean until I leaned the language.

One other area I have wondered about. Just who is going to enforce this whole mess? Someone else mentioned the government cutting back on some local inspectors. Ours has cut back by not hiring a replacement for a guy who retired. Not sure if our inspectors even test anything for lead. Another self policing policy by contractors who will turn each other in like we do now for unliscensed contractors. You know how far that has gotten us so far.

Cornerstone Tim
11-01-2009, 09:02 PM
Saw a HEPA filter at SEARS for a Craftsman vac........$15.00.......claims to pick up 99+%

ibkruzin
11-02-2009, 05:12 AM
That filter was shown in the class. Take a second and open the flaps on the box and look for the disclaimer about lead and asbestos. They offer no guarantee for that

BGeezus
11-03-2009, 06:35 AM
I called Aramsco yesterday to ask a human about their vacs.I called the toll free number and then was transfered to someone at their store closest to me.(Brooklyn)

I was told that all of their vacs that they sell are approved for use in the Abatement industry and used by Abatement contractors,their largest customers.(who approves the vacuums still isn't clear to me).They are aware of the upcoming new lead renovation rules.

They faxed me product information,from their catalog I guess,which seems to be the same as off their site:

http://www.aramsco.com/eserv/eclipse.ecl?PROCID=WEBDISP.WOEB.MAIN&ID~1=105&ID~2=1190112&ID~3=119002404&CLEV=4&TRACKNO=J3998473381

(If you have trouble with the link go to aramsco.com,click in the left column where it says lead and asbestos and then click on vacuums,they seem to have some kind of tracking thing that expires the link after a few hours).

I was told that probably their most sold models are the Mastercraft models used by lead and asbestos contractors.They look similar to the Nilfisk I have.

These vacs all have prefilters and bags which are throw aways and cheap to replace.The Hepa is not cheap to replace at about $200 .

Your looking at about a grand to use what the pro's use as far a shop vac size.The small back pack size looks interesting at about half that.

always-learning
11-03-2009, 06:56 PM
(If you have trouble with the link go ....



Yeah,

What is up with that ??? Wot is usually right on, when it comes to rating a site.

ThingOfBeauty
11-12-2009, 06:34 PM
I emailed Ridgid to ask about their vac & filter combo, they said it's specifically NOT recommended for hazardous materials.
I have a Pullman-Holt HEPA vac I bought ten years ago during the HUD/NARI Lead Certified Remodeler days, for about $300--now I see it for about $500. I made the money back on the first job, which I landed by talking about the lead issue with the homeowners who had two kids.
I don't think this is too bad. It's not that hard or expensive to execute, and it is a lot better than nothing. I think it can be sold to most homeowners. If they want to poison their kids, do you want to be the contractor anyway?
You can always hire a lead testing company and find out if you have to be careful or not. And if you are worried you can hire an abatement contractor before you even go in.

IndyDog
11-13-2009, 08:15 PM
I'm in the market for a new vac since I stomped, kicked, bashed, cussed, and hurled my perfectly fine Shop Vac today (I would have sledge hammered it too but it was out of the room LOL). I was looking at the Fein line and there was a description on the site I was looking at that the Fein Turbo I and III vacs are not rated for lead and asbestos removal, but the Turbo II was since it had HEPA bags. Hmmmm. Not sure if I'm going to spring for one or get a Rigid POS until some definite guidelines come out regarding vacs and their acceptability for lead use. Anybody know about this Turbo II ratiing?

m beezo
11-13-2009, 11:36 PM
I'm in the market for a new vac since I stomped, kicked, bashed, cussed, and hurled my perfectly fine Shop Vac today (I would have sledge hammered it too but it was out of the room LOL). I was looking at the Fein line and there was a description on the site I was looking at that the Fein Turbo I and III vacs are not rated for lead and asbestos removal, but the Turbo II was since it had HEPA bags. Hmmmm. Not sure if I'm going to spring for one or get a Rigid POS until some definite guidelines come out regarding vacs and their acceptability for lead use. Anybody know about this Turbo II ratiing?

At the Indy show the Fein and Festool folks told me that their vacs have to have some sort of testing and final approval by the government (I am guessing) to get the label as a HEPA approved vac. The both made it sound like they were in the testing process although neither would say a whole lot about it.

IndyDog
11-14-2009, 09:12 AM
I got this off the McFeely's website. Maybe Fein has come through?

"We’ve asked the fine folks at Fein (pun intended) to upgrade each of these with a HEPA filter. HEPA Filters trap particles to 0.3 microns – smaller than any wood sawdust you can create. When working with lead and asbestos pick-up, use the TURBO II model which is supplied with the HEPA Dust Bag for hazardous particulate containment.

Supplied with a 16’ or 10’ hose, see table below for product details. Made in Italy.

Note: Turbo I and Turbo III models are not for use for Asbestos or Lead removal and containment."

Dancing Dan
11-14-2009, 09:46 AM
Well, that sounds like the definition of mixed message to me.

Bill Robinson
11-14-2009, 11:13 AM
As I see it currently the guidelines are that for dust collection using power tools a vac with a HEPA filter is OK especially when there is containment.

For cleanup a HEPA vac must be used.

Most of the better-quality shop vacs from the likes of Festool and Fein are HEPA filtered and not certified as a HEPA vac.

It is my best guess that both Festool and Fein will come out with a HEPA vac and that if we are fortunate there will be a retrofit possibility.
They have not told me this it is simply wishful thinking.

There is a significant market opportunity here and someone is certainly jumping on it.

Certified Bill R

Dancing Dan
11-14-2009, 01:06 PM
Certifiable, anyway.

I hope you're right. I'm delaying my next vac purchase and will blame you for any untoward outcomes.

m beezo
11-14-2009, 06:19 PM
Certifiable, anyway.

I hope you're right. I'm delaying my next vac purchase and will blame you for any untoward outcomes.

Same with me. I am waiting to see what comes down the pike before I buy.

Bill Robinson
11-14-2009, 08:56 PM
I am doing a lead training on Monday, will take some photos so you will see how I do it.
Note, it is not a certified course--simply a lead awareness training.

Certifiably Bill R

VTNorm
11-15-2009, 04:38 PM
I'm looking at the EPA "Contractors lead Safety Shopping List" that I received in a class last spring, among the 2 dozen or so items it reads;

"HEPA vacuum cleaner"

and

"Power tools with high efficiency particulate air (HEPA) filter-equipped vacuum attachments".

Nothing about the vacuum actually being certified for lead, asbestos or anything else.

-Norm

VTNorm
11-15-2009, 05:43 PM
This is also from the course. This is a HUD approved lead course for doing specialized cleaning and renovation work in pre-1978 rental housing & child care facilities. Again, nothing about having a 'certified' HEPA vac.

What is a “HEPA” Vacuum?
HEPA (High‐Efficiency Particulate Air) vacuums differ from conventional vacuums in that they contain filters that arecapable of trapping extremely small, micron‐sized particles. A true HEPA filter can trap 99.97 percent of all airborneparticles larger than 0.3 microns. To illustrate how small this is, a human red blood cell is usually between 6 and 8 microns wide.

Why do HEPA vacuums need to be used for lead dust cleaning?
Airborne lead dust particles are around 2 or 3 microns in size and settled dust can be anything larger than this all the way up to full size paint chips. While any household vacuum could pick up paint chips, the average household vacuum releases particles smaller than 50 microns which means that the vast majority of the smallest and most easily spread particles are being blown back into the air.

If I use a HEPA vacuum to clean a surface, does that mean it is free of lead dust?
A HEPA vacuum will pick up loose dust from surfaces, however a residue of adhered lead dust will likely remain on the surface which should be cleaned by wet wiping or cleaning.

Are all HEPA vacuums the same?
Vacuum manufacturers are not required to test their vacuums for particle emissions so the quality and filtration capability of HEPA vacuums can vary greatly.

What are some things to consider when purchasing a HEPA vacuum?
1. Consider what type of cleaning you are using the vacuum for. Generally a good canister style vacuum will suffice for most household cleaning jobs while a more industrial style vacuum may be needed for cleaning up after renovation work. Consider a power head for the canister vacuum if cleaning carpets.
2. Upright vacuums tend to be less well built, leak more exhaust air, and are harder to use for cleaning vertical surfaces.
3. Look for a vacuum with pre filter stages before the main HEPA filter. Pre‐filters in a vacuum will help prevent dirt from directly impacting and clogging the HEPA filter, which is usually expensive to replace.
4. Check for gaskets in the vacuum housing that prevents air leakage that can bypass the filters. While many manufacturers will talk about how good their HEPA filtration is, a vacuum that lets air leak out before it gets to the filter is not very effective.
5. Look for a vacuum with the HEPA filter after the motor. If the motor is after the filter, the motor will emit carbon particles from the brushes in the motor
6. Look for a vacuum with bags that have built in dust flaps or a tab that pulls over the bag opening to minimize the release of dust when changing bags.
7. Avoid a “bag less” vacuum or a vacuum that collects dust in a cup or container. These tend to not seal very tightly and release lots of dust when emptied.
8. HEPA filters should not be allowed to get wet and as such should not be used for vacuuming water or wet debris.
9. Make sure vacuum wands have a suction control or air vent to control the strength of suction. This is very useful when vacuuming polyethylene sheeting.
10. Avoid vacuums with “water filtration” as they are not a replacement for HEPA filtration.
11. When using a good quality HEPA vacuum, you should not be able to see or smell dust although most odors will not be stopped by a HEPA filter.

-Norm

ThingOfBeauty
11-15-2009, 09:44 PM
Clear as mud, then.
There are companies that sell HEPA vacs specially made for lead, asbestos, etc. work. Guess we need to buy those until we hear otherwise.
It sounds to me like Ridgid, Fein, etc. added nice filters to their vacs but that they currently consider them inadequate for hazardous materials, for some reason. Which could be that they aren't good enough, or could be that their insurance isn't good enough and their lawyer is good enough.
Woudn't be the first time.

datcoart
06-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Dustless Technologies makes a HEPA vacuum specifically to meet the EPA RRP regulations. The HEPA filter is certified to meet all government standards. The vacuum is designed specifically to house the HEPA filter and this is important because the EPA has come out and stated that it does NOT recommend retrofitting a HEPA filter into a traditional shop vacuum. The vacuum is also certified to meet integrity testing standards which means it is airtight. The Vacuum comes with the HEPA filter factory installed. The pre-filter system is the best on the market because both pre-filters capture particles down to 0.5 micron. Other pre-filter systems capture down to 1.0 micron. Better pre-filtration translates into longer HEPA filter life. Also, the Dustless vacuum has a 16 gallon canister and can hold up to 40 lbs of dust before being emptied. All the filters have more surface area - very important to support high airflow for effective dust control. One huge advantage is that it is the ONLY HEPA vacuum on the market that lets you go from dry to wet vacuuming without stopping to remove or change the filter. A baffle wall inside the canister keeps the HEPA filter dry. This is the vacuum everyone needs. You can buy it through Amazon and Home Depot's online store. Soon you'll be able to find them in Home Depot stores across the country.

datcoart
06-12-2010, 12:19 PM
I neglected to point out that the Dustless Technologies HEPA vacuum is also designed for hazardous materials. The are a lot of HEPA vacuums that are for allergens and fine dust, but not recommended for hazardous materials like lead or hexavalent chromium.