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JAKA
02-25-2004, 01:34 PM
About a year ago I picked up a tool called the Butt-taper. It puts a bevel into the butt joint and you run 1/2" wide tape to get a 6" finished width. I do a lot of repair work, putting in a 2'x 2' patch type, and this has saved me at least at a minimum, materials money on small work. I've used the 'OSB butt joint backer technique' instead of on the stud method for quite some time now and found that to be a godsend! I have over time bid larger jobs and tried to put the cost of the backers on the market that bevel the board to minimize the width of the butt joint finish. But I can't be competitive cause of the cost. The butt-taper was a one time investment and I'm sold on it. I was just wondering what experiences others have had. If you've used other products, what are they and are they cost effective? Today with houses having mega windows and extreme lighting, shadowing from wide butts are a big issue.

RickA
02-25-2004, 02:14 PM
ButtHangers are considered the best solution (because they recess the butt like a seam). The same company that makes butthangers has a new product called 'Rock Splicer' - I've asked them to send one to Myron (since Myron is the most respected DryWall academic)

I only use OSB/plywood when I'm out of buttHangers.

--rick


ButtHanger (http://www.butthanger.com/ourproduct.htm)

Kirk
02-25-2004, 02:30 PM
I am testing the Butt Taper next week and I will let you know what I think of it. At first glance I like it for all the reasons mentioned. One time investment, spread out over many jobs.

Have you tried it with hot mud and no tape? I am told if you use it that way, then you don't need to use that 1/2 tape.

I normally use hot mud since I do small jobs, but am thinking of getting some Better Than Ever Tools that work with both hot and general purpose mud.

kirk

RickA
02-25-2004, 07:24 PM
I mostly do jobs where the drywall portion is small - so I love hotmud. Even when I did big drywall jobs, I always first coated the metal with hotmud. I estimate I have 1/50th the problems that you would get using convential all porpose.

Kirk, aren't you afraid of leaving the hot mud in the tools too long? I've got AHADD (attention deficit disorder), so I leave hot mud in a pan once a month.

Check the hotlink below.
--rick


Butt Master (3's company blonde) (http://www.butttaper.com/home.htm)

Kirk
02-26-2004, 03:08 AM
RickA,

I am not sure if you are kidding about the ADD, but I don't even use a pan with hot mud. I use a hawk. It cleans quick and easy even if the mud goes off. Of course when I use soupy mud I use a pan. Always stainless steel since they clean the best and you don't get crumbs in your mud like with plastic. That is when I use 40 or 90 minute mud soupy, or general purpose more often. Since the skim coats are so thin, they dry quick.

The Better Than Ever Tools don't get mud inside, except for one tool, so clean up is easy. I haven't got the tools yet, but I will be getting them depending on the out come of these two jobs I am bidding. As these are bigger jobs, I think I can use general purpose mud and trade the quick drying time for the quick applying time.

I usually have too many start and stops, if there is a lot of linear feet of seams on a job. I really like to get all my coats on in one day and then come back to paint. I don't want to spend three days mudding and then wait for it to dry and then paint. It all comes down to balancing the choice of tools.

Kirk

JAKA
02-26-2004, 11:25 AM
RickA

Where did you get the info that 'butt-hangers are considered the best solution?'
Did someone do a test and can you lead me to the results. I used the butthangers before and they work ok, all I couldn't handle was including them in a bid. Flat out, they cost too much to be competitive on a bid. what do you apy apiece?
Kirk,

I have never went without tape, I just figured its such a small step why omit it. I guess if you use the OSB with screws and glue, its never gonna move and the tape isn't necessary, but since I warranty my work I take every precaution.
I like the taper because I do a lot of patch work. A 2' x 2' patch in the middle of a smooth ceiling is where you have to keep things as level and flush as possible. Beyond the tools mentioned here, are there any other ones on the market I've missed for butt work. Kirk do you know the butt-tapers web address? As soon as you write the word 'butt' in a search engine your headed for porno land and can't find the drywall stuff.

Kirk
02-26-2004, 03:39 PM
JAKA

The link to the webaddress for the butt taper is two posts up in RickA's post. It is labeled butt Master, but it is the Butt taper. Take a look it is real good.

Kirk G

JAKA
02-26-2004, 07:55 PM
Kirk,

Thanks, I'll bookmark both of these site and do some more research. I thought there were a couple variations on the butt-hanger. If anyone has used butt-hangers, how well does 5/8" board work trying to bend it in such a short distance, what is it about 6"? 5/8" seems awful stiff to bend. What does it take, glue and extra screws to get in bent and to keep it there?

leon bee
02-27-2004, 01:58 AM
JAKA:I never have seen a real Butthanger, many of us carpenters have been making our own for years. Yes, 5/8 can be a little hard to bend, 1/2 no problem. I use 5/8 or 3/4 ply whatever I got. 10 or 12" strip 4 feet long. Staple one drywall shim along each edge. After one sheet is up stick this "splint" up in there and glue and screw to that sheet. Then when I hang the next sheet I kind of tease the end up- start about 8 screws across the butt and suck them up gradually till all screws are sunk. The glue is just for peace of mind. Takes longer to describe than do.

RickA
02-27-2004, 04:12 AM
>>Where did you get the info that 'butt-hangers are considered the best solution?'

How about the company that makes them, me and a few hangers I. OK, you called BS on me - so I'll change it to "some hangers ..."

>> I guess if you use the OSB with screws and glue, its never gonna move and the tape isn't necessary, but since I warranty my work I take every precaution.

Unless you screw the hell out of it and use the biggest possible panel, I'm betting it would crack. (just my guess)

Where I don't use tape or mesh is repairing holes in a wall where you have one contiguous sheet of rock - and I put a chunk of plywood in the wall, 3/8" sheet rock or plywood over the plywood backer (given 1/2", just drop down 1/8" inch) Then finish it with hotmud, then topping, ...

I only do this on my rentals tho, no problems in 12 years. I keep chickening out on customer jobs.

Steve
02-27-2004, 04:27 PM
Rick,

You just answered your question about not using tape on that butt for JAKA with your repair work. If the drywall is backed firmly with plywood or OSB and then drywall is applied to it well, it will never move thus no need for tape. Further, I know for sure that Durabond or a setting compound holds drywall better without tape than joint compound with tape as setting compound is not affected by humidity and is just overall a much stronger bond.

Why do we use tape on a seam - to bind the two boards together. Say you put a piece of OSB or plywood backer on the seam between the studs, then using a setting compound you don't need the tape on the front of the board....why? because the backer board is the tape and the bond is far superior than ricky joint compound. I did a 800 board house a few years with a product called "Fiber Joint" - it's something like Durabond with fibers in it and I did not use any tape on the seams nor butts and guess what...no cracks..it's been 3 years now.

The thing is so strong I used it to patch gypcrete with it! In England they have a system where they don't use tape on the seams either.

JAKA
02-28-2004, 09:38 PM
Steve,

Is 'Fiber Joint' a readily available compound? I never heard of it.
RickA,

I hope I didn't sound like was making an issue on your statement, I just thought you may of had some info I could read up on.
I still haven't gotten a price on the butt-hanger from anyone yet, or how they could win a bid if the competition is not using them and can omit
the materials cost. I've never had a bid spec sheet require their use either.

Steve
02-29-2004, 05:35 PM
Jaka,

The "Fiber Joint" - well you got to buy 3 pallets of it. It's made by a company on Milwaukee -truly excellent also for plaster patching. Send a private e-mail and I'll give you their phone number. It works on the same principle as fibers in cement where you don't need the wire mesh (tape in drywall).

JAKA
02-29-2004, 09:28 PM
Steve,

Thanks, i'll e-mail you, but 3 pallets...thats a heavy order for a product I've never used. Have you ever used the butt-hangers and if you did, what do you think of them?

Kirk
03-01-2004, 10:15 AM
The EZ backer and gutt hanger links are all on Myron's site as well.

http://www.thatdrywallguy.com/EzBacker.htm

I expect since he has them on his site he is happy with both. Myron, can you compare and contrast the two and why would you use one over the other? The seem to do the same job.

Kirk Grodske


http://www.thatdrywallguy.com/EzBacker.htm

Steve
03-01-2004, 04:58 PM
JAKA,

I never used the E-Z Backer nor the ButtHanger as I use the ButtTaper ;-) Some day if I had a pplace to store the Fiber Joint I would order 3 pallets..but you can make your own. Get DuraBond and some of that fiber that they sell and mix it up..it should work. Fiber Joint is excellent for small job seams! When me and one of my guys tried it the first time, we did a boiler room with it as we figured if it don't work we can always fix the boiler room..well we banged against it and then got a rubber mallet and smashed holes about 3 inches above and below a seam and the seam did not crack..then we proceeded to do the house with it..only drawback is constantly mixing the stuff.

JAKA
03-01-2004, 07:11 PM
Kirk,

Yeah Ive seen the similar products, must not be a patent. If I remember well, the butt-hangers were like $7 or $8 each, thats why I was questioning there feasability in a whole house bid aganst someone not bidding them. I like the butt-taper because of this, its a tool I invested in once and can continue to profit from it. Man the way drywall is skyrocketing, every penny saved is a factor. If the customer has the extra finance, do I blow it in product (for some company to make the money) or profit for me. Butts are a big quality factor that deserve these lengthy posts, I just wish we would have had a bigger response.
Steve,

You know that fiber you can get from readymix concrete companies, they put it in the concrete for strength. Is that the stuff I can use? I've floated concrete with that stuff in it and it floats to the surface and if you walk bafefoot on it,it'll stick in your skin, bad news. How does it float out in durabond?

Steve
03-03-2004, 05:18 AM
JAKA,

I went to a website once about the fibers in cement and they said it's stronger than the wire mesh because the wire mesh lays on the bottom and it should be in the middle of the concrete. What they do is burn off the fibers on the cement at the end. With the "fiber joint" the fibers do not stick out of the mud. I never tried Durabond with the fibers, but I believe that the Fiber Joint without the fibers is pretty much the same as Durabond. In the Fiber Joint the fibers were very small. I made blobs of it once and asked 6 of us to break the blob in half and onely one guy succeeded.

Myron Ferguson
04-04-2004, 08:03 PM
I have used the Butthangers, Ez Backers and Rock Splicers. I helped develop these products. I know cost is an issue, but they do save time and materials so most of the cost is covered. By using anyone of these products I am giving my customers a higher quality job that will stay that way. I use long sheets and try not to have any butt seams so I don't have to use that many. The average house cost me about 125 dollars more to give my customers an upgrade. I tell my customers what I am doing and most are willing to pay the extra. If I tape a house that does not use backblockers I charge extra for each butt seam and can not guarantee that I can hide the joint.

beezo
04-04-2004, 08:13 PM
Myron, do I read your last sentence right? You do not gaurantee that you can hide a but joint? I am a bit surprized at that. Is that something that is in your contract language? It seems to me that I was always told being able to do a butt seam well was one of the ways to tell if you had a good drywall man. I am not saying you are not. Just surprised at that statement. I have not used the Butthangers since I do not do that much drywall in large amounts. I do agree with you that with some planning you could eliminate most butt joints.

Myron Ferguson
04-05-2004, 08:08 PM
A typical butt seam is a bump. All you can try to do is feather it out, but at certain times of the day under the right lighting you can still see the bump. Backblocking creats a recess that is filled just like a tapered edge seam. I did a clinic at a builders show in Febuary. I finish taped a butt seam 32" wide and everyone thought it was perfect. Looking at the seam and running your hand over it did seam perfect. Put a 4' level on the seam and it is a whole different story. Also butted seams are the first seams to ridge.